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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby bloke » Sun May 06, 2018 9:29 pm

What is the proper mouthpiece to use with a Chinese copy of a Japanese copy of a German copy of a one-off American tuba?
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby TheTuba » Sun May 06, 2018 9:50 pm

Tried funnels, I suck on them. Plus I don't like the bite. I don't want to change mouthpieces, just the sound.
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby ken k » Sun May 06, 2018 9:51 pm

I have been dealing with this issue in my own playing recently.

For 30+ years I have played a Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb with a 19"bell. It has a very "broad" tone. I always enjoyed its full and rich sound. I would liken this to the "American" style. A small bore horn with a large bell, which diffuses the sound a bit. For the past few years I was trying to get a more focused sound, (since I play the top Eb part in a brass band) so I started using a bowl style mouthpiece as opposed a Helleberg style (I used a conn Helleberg on the horn for probably 15 years.)

About a year ago I purchased a Miraphone Norwegian Star Eb, and the tone is much more focused (German?), like a scalpel as opposed to a butter knife. It would be a larger bore horn but with a smaller bell (more cylindrical overall than the Boosey?) I have been experimenting with which mouthpiece to use. I have a number of Sellmanberger cups to interchange with my rim (the older 2 piece models, Imperial, Symphony, Solo # 1 & 2, also regular and mega rims). I seem to have settled in on the Solo #2 with the mega (deep) rim, so I have a bowl cup, but a bit deeper. I find when I use the Sellmansberger Symphony, which is a deep funnel, the horn definitely loses some of that edge and has a broader tone. When I play with the pops Orchestra I think I may use the Symphony cup to help broaden the tone a bit for the larger ensemble. I would be curious how much this difference is actually heard out in the audience??? Or is it a matter of feel vs. sound?

I also prefer the more focused sound with my quintet. It just gives me a more precise tone and articulation, which I like in the quintet (for now, anyway, maybe in a year I will wish for the fuller sound again, who knows.)

Norwegian Star vs. Boosey Imperial (Besson), definitley two different style horns, two distinct sounds. Which is better? A matter of taste I would guess. Do you like a German accent or an English accent?
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby Ken Crawford » Mon May 07, 2018 8:32 am

bloke wrote:What is the proper mouthpiece to use with a Chinese copy of a Japanese copy of a German copy of a one-off American tuba?



Image

Obviously.
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby Fergie » Tue May 08, 2018 10:56 am

Wait, do English tubas have a particular "sound"?
Dvorak probably wrote the the fourteen notes in New World Symphony to get his tuba friends a gig.
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby bloke » Tue May 08, 2018 11:54 am

Fergie wrote:Wait, do English tubas have a particular "sound"?


I believe so...but their characteristic sound qualities seem to be ignored/not-brought-up here...
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby Patrase » Tue May 08, 2018 4:31 pm

Would James Gourlay playing his recordings of 'British Tuba Concertos' be the British tuba sound? He seems to be a Besson artist and a well regarded UK tuba player told me James uses a 24 equivalent mouthpeice. So am guessing that's what equipment the album was recorded with.
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby kontrabasstuba » Tue May 08, 2018 8:17 pm

The most traditional german Bb tuba sound was and is the 6/4 Bohland and Fuchs(or other old instrument builder from Graslitz and surrounding area)
Lots big tubas (upright mainslide) based on this type and body form. Amazing and unequaled sound. :tuba:
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby Wyvern » Tue May 08, 2018 8:23 pm

Patrase wrote:Would James Gourlay playing his recordings of 'British Tuba Concertos' be the British tuba sound? He seems to be a Besson artist and a well regarded UK tuba player told me James uses a 24 equivalent mouthpeice. So am guessing that's what equipment the album was recorded with.

I would say John Fletcher playing a Besson 19” bell compensated EEb tuba provides the classic British tuba sound. At least that is the sound a lot of us tuba players in the UK aspire
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby TheTuba » Sun May 20, 2018 9:39 pm

other than American, German, and British tonal colors, Is there any other regional tonal characteristic that is seperate from these and followed by many people?

Also, With the Advent of more tuba players, will a new "Asian" sound begin to emerge?

Finally, other than the more Cylindrical (Miraphone) tubas (German), and the more broad Conical/very fast increasing bell diameter (King 2341) tubas (American), will a new design emerge that complements the above mentioned "Asian" sound?


With the new players, the tuba world is getting more exciting..........
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby TheTuba » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:14 am

Would the newer 186 miraphone be a American tuba or a Germanic tuba?
Also, would the wessex luzern be considered a german or american?
Finally, what are some tubas that are American but use valves?
One more question I promise!
Off topic, but are most piston American horns like the king 2341's? I recall that some notes were stuffy/ loud ( looking at you, B and C) on that horn, that's why I steered clear of pistons from then on.

EDIT: when I say American and german, I mean the American and German styles of tubas
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby Bnich93 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:23 am

TheTuba, you really should lurk more or use google to find out these things. Even though it is forgivable considering you are a beginner to the tuba world, some of these questions do not make a ton of sense and you tend to relate features of tubas to the sounds that they make even though 99% of tone is coming from the players themselves.

Now to actually answer some of the questions:

"With the Advent of more tuba players, will a new "Asian" sound begin to emerge?"
Only if they start designing their own tubas rather than copying aspects of other companies horns.

"Finally, other than the more Cylindrical (Miraphone) tubas (German), and the more broad Conical/very fast increasing bell diameter (King 2341) tubas (American), will a new design emerge that complements the above mentioned "Asian" sound?"
No.

"Would the newer 186 miraphone be a American tuba or a Germanic tuba?"
German

"would the wessex luzern be considered a german or american?"
German

"Finally, what are some tubas that are American but use valves?"
All of them.

"are most piston American horns like the king 2341"
No, and I found the 2341 to be a very free blowing horn in my experience. I don't understand why you think that the pistons contributed to a different sound quality and that they should be avoided on other horns because of one experience.
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby bloke » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:28 pm

What about Weril tubas?

I hear there are a brazilian of them !
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby Doc » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:49 pm

bloke wrote:What about Weril tubas?

I hear there are a brazilian of them !


Pardon me while I pick up the corn after that.
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby TheTuba » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:49 pm

Doc wrote:
bloke wrote:What about Weril tubas?

I hear there are a brazilian of them !


Pardon me while I pick up the corn after that.



Stop

that was actually pretty good
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby Ken Herrick » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:12 am

Will the tuba return from his trip with an Indian sound?
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby royjohn » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:35 pm

If a tuba plays in the forest and there's no one around to hear, does it have a German or American sound?

@TheTuba...the King may have been stuffy on some valved notes because the valves were poorly aligned...the Kings don't have a reputation for being stuffy, far from it, they are a classic American tuba which many people like. On another topic, do all funnel shaped mpcs have too much bite? Are you sure you're just not used to the funnel? Most good tuba players can play either type and many do switch between them as needed. :!:
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby TheTuba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:47 pm

royjohn wrote:If a tuba plays in the forest and there's no one around to hear, does it have a German or American sound?

@TheTuba...the King may have been stuffy on some valved notes because the valves were poorly aligned...the Kings don't have a reputation for being stuffy, far from it, they are a classic American tuba which many people like. On another topic, do all funnel shaped mpcs have too much bite? Are you sure you're just not used to the funnel? Most good tuba players can play either type and many do switch between them as needed. :!:


The kings were bought new for our school's, so I wouldn't know how they are supposed to be.
Not all funnels have a bite, but this was when I was posting without a teacher, so please account for that. Ex, Pt-48
For some reason, funnels feel like they have a lot of resistance. That's why I don't use them a lot.
Still searching for a 8/4 EEb
I mean if you want to, you can buy me the tuba in my name :P
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby TheTuba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:49 pm

And yes, I am probably not used to a funnel
Still searching for a 8/4 EEb
I mean if you want to, you can buy me the tuba in my name :P
If you're selling a good BBb or CC 5/4 or large 4/4 with 5 valves in 2021 under 6,000, please, contact me!
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Re: "American" vs. "German" tubas

Postby royjohn » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:38 am

TheTuba wrote:
The kings were bought new for our school's, so I wouldn't know how they are supposed to be.
Not all funnels have a bite, but this was when I was posting without a teacher, so please account for that. Ex, Pt-48
For some reason, funnels feel like they have a lot of resistance. That's why I don't use them a lot.


IDK whether you are saying the Kings are new now or were bought new some time ago...at any rate, being new
doesn't mean the valves couldn't be out of line.

As to funnel shaped mpcs and bite, IDK, but I'm sure someone here does. Resistance is usually greater with mpcs
with smaller throats or backbores and neither the PT-48 you give as an example or the RT-44 you say you use would
be considered to have either, as they are designed for big BBbs and CCs. Further, I believe you said you were using
the RT-44 with the Miraphone and Perantucci sites specifically call it a funnel shaped mpc cup. So you are already playing
a funnel, I guess. Maybe you could look at the mpc descriptions and clarify... :?: :?: :?:
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