Valve Set Question

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
bigboymusic
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:54 am
Location: Independence, MO

Valve Set Question

Post by bigboymusic »

How does one go about looking into getting a piston valve set? I know my way around rotors, but this will be the first set of BB pistons I have ever looked into purchasing. MW? Kanstul? Chinese? This would be to put on a Holton 345 body eventually...
Paul Weissenborn
St. Joseph Symphony Orchestra (MO)
Spirit of Independence Band
SJSO Quintet
Alex 163 CC
YEB 321S
User avatar
bigboymusic
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:54 am
Location: Independence, MO

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by bigboymusic »

Joe, if it was a CC, I would have called you immediately! I love the JP CC valve set. I really would like to leave this baby in B-flat.
Paul Weissenborn
St. Joseph Symphony Orchestra (MO)
Spirit of Independence Band
SJSO Quintet
Alex 163 CC
YEB 321S
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by bort »

Joe -- the factory doesn't make BBb valve sets?
User avatar
Ken Crawford
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 722
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:45 am
Location: Rexburg, ID

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by Ken Crawford »

The valve set in question is off the JP HB21 clone I think... In that case, no BBb version.
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by bort »

My question was simply, doesn't JP make a piston valve tuba, with a valve section in that style?

Seems like the answer is no. Which is fine... but just curious.
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by bort »

I meant a BBb piston tuba... but by this point, it doesn't really matter. :)
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Waiting on a vintage tow truck

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by roweenie »

Mark Finley wrote:If it was in need of a BBb piston valve set, I would be looking on ebay for a king tuba with a crushed bell, recording bell, or even better, the recording bell that is Missing. Tell them to keep that hard case if it comes with one, and just ship the body. That would work, wouldn't it?
Good idea for smaller tubas, but the bore (.687) is too small for the O.P.'s Holton 345 (.750).

Again, I honestly think there would be a slightly brisker market for untubed 19mm/.748 bore 4 valve clusters, but maybe it's just me..... :oops:
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
User avatar
Ken Crawford
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 722
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:45 am
Location: Rexburg, ID

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by Ken Crawford »

roweenie wrote:
Mark Finley wrote:If it was in need of a BBb piston valve set, I would be looking on ebay for a king tuba with a crushed bell, recording bell, or even better, the recording bell that is Missing. Tell them to keep that hard case if it comes with one, and just ship the body. That would work, wouldn't it?
Good idea for smaller tubas, but the bore (.687) is too small for the O.P.'s Holton 345 (.750).

Again, I honestly think there would be a slightly brisker market for untubed 19mm/.748 bore 4 valve clusters, but maybe it's just me..... :oops:
Sam Gnagey has built some very nice 6/4 tubas with king .687 valve sections.
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Waiting on a vintage tow truck

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by roweenie »

Ken Crawford wrote:
roweenie wrote:
Mark Finley wrote:If it was in need of a BBb piston valve set, I would be looking on ebay for a king tuba with a crushed bell, recording bell, or even better, the recording bell that is Missing. Tell them to keep that hard case if it comes with one, and just ship the body. That would work, wouldn't it?
Good idea for smaller tubas, but the bore (.687) is too small for the O.P.'s Holton 345 (.750).

Again, I honestly think there would be a slightly brisker market for untubed 19mm/.748 bore 4 valve clusters, but maybe it's just me..... :oops:
Sam Gnagey has built some very nice 6/4 tubas with king .687 valve sections.
Glad to hear that. In my opinion, it's too small.
bloke wrote:King...as long as 11/16" bore is desired...and does not need to be rebuilt. 
 
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
TubaSteve
bugler
bugler
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 2:38 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by TubaSteve »

If it was in need of a BBb piston valve Good idea for smaller tubas, but the bore (.687) is too small for the O.P.'s Holton 345 (.750).

Sam Gnagey has built some very nice 6/4 tubas with king .687 valve sections.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Glad to hear that. In my opinion, it's too small.


Bob, why don't you post a photo of the 6/4 Holton you built? Great looking horn!
MW-25, 2-Reynolds 170 (BBb Recording Bass), Reynolds 180 (EEb Recording Bass) , 2-Reynolds 140 Sousaphones, Holton 350, others.....
User avatar
bigboymusic
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:54 am
Location: Independence, MO

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by bigboymusic »

I will have the 340 in my hands next Tuesday. My hope is that this will be the last big horn I purchase. (I know, haha) Pushing 50 years old, I'm hoping I get a good 10+ years more of good orchestral playing. While I am sure I will be putting a piston set on in the next 18 months, question for the gurus of production and function. What are the possibilities of putting a 5 valve Meinlschmidt rotor set on? I know from what I have been shown, the piston set would be an easy add. Curious as to the problems you might face?? I got to spend about 60 seconds once on a rotor 2165, and it was glorious....
Paul Weissenborn
St. Joseph Symphony Orchestra (MO)
Spirit of Independence Band
SJSO Quintet
Alex 163 CC
YEB 321S
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Waiting on a vintage tow truck

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by roweenie »

TubaSteve wrote: Bob, why don't you post a photo of the 6/4 Holton you built? Great looking horn!
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=87366" target="_blank
bigboymusic wrote:What are the possibilities of putting a 5 valve Meinlschmidt rotor set on?
Excellent question - in fact, I've contemplated doing exactly this myself. On the surface (assuming you are starting with a valveless bugle) it should actually be easier than putting on a piston section (even obtaining the valves is easier), but my general aversion to rotary valves has held me back :tuba: :tuba: :tuba:
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
User avatar
bigboymusic
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:54 am
Location: Independence, MO

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by bigboymusic »

Pretty much the same home it’s going to have at my place
Paul Weissenborn
St. Joseph Symphony Orchestra (MO)
Spirit of Independence Band
SJSO Quintet
Alex 163 CC
YEB 321S
User avatar
bigboymusic
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:54 am
Location: Independence, MO

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by bigboymusic »

So non repair specialist question.... Would a valve block with no tubing+buying the parts to have the tubing+cost of assembly = ?? Would that still likely be less than the whole assembly plus labor???
Paul Weissenborn
St. Joseph Symphony Orchestra (MO)
Spirit of Independence Band
SJSO Quintet
Alex 163 CC
YEB 321S
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Waiting on a vintage tow truck

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by roweenie »

Valve block = piston valve assembly only (no tubes or crooks)

Valve set (or nest) = piston valve assembly complete with tubes and crooks


My best guess is that the cost of buying a valve block, all other parts individually, plus the labor of building the valve circuits after the fact, would be higher than buying the complete valve nest as would be provided by bloke (the only wildcard is we don't have a cost yet for purchase of a 4 valve block alone, but I suspect the savings won't be enough to offset the above added costs).

If you are building a CC, E flat, or F tuba, bloke's completely tubed valve nest is the cost-effective way to go, hands down.

The "issue" is for those who want to build BBb tubas. If you're OK with the aesthetics of it, the easiest and most cost-effective way would be to buy the valve set as offered, and then extend the crook ferrules on each circuit to achieve BBb lengths.

For those of us who are not OK with the aesthetics of the above mentioned method (and have the skill-set and resources to build our own valve circuits, or who actually prefer to do their own custom work), a valve block is the best way to go.

I guess it all comes down to what you want, and how much you are willing to spend to get it.
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
User avatar
The Big Ben
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 3169
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:54 am
Location: Port Townsend, WA

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by The Big Ben »

roweenie wrote:Valve block
The "issue" is for those who want to build BBb tubas. If you're OK with the aesthetics of it, the easiest and most cost-effective way would be to buy the valve set as offered, and then extend the crook ferrules on each circuit to achieve BBb lengths.

For those of us who are not OK with the aesthetics of the above mentioned method (and have the skill-set and resources to build our own valve circuits, or who actually prefer to do their own custom work), a valve block is the best way to go.
One of the posters who recently acquired a 3v Holton 340 was looking for some sort of conversion to 4v. Buying the entire 4v valve set (with tubes et. al) in BBb would be one option, another would be to buy at 4v block, attach the tubes from the 340 and craft a 4th set of tubes or, third, get a 4v CC valve set and stretch it to work for BBb.
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Waiting on a vintage tow truck

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by roweenie »

The Big Ben wrote:Buying the entire 4v valve set (with tubes et. al) in BBb would be one option
I wasn't aware that this was an option. Could you supply your source, as I would be interested in this myself?
The Big Ben wrote:another would be to buy at 4v block, attach the tubes from the 340 and craft a 4th set of tubes

This is essentially the same procedure as building a valve set from scratch (which I have already addressed, previously). Even though you may save some money by using recycled parts (provided the radii of the old crooks, especially #1 and #2, are correct for the new valve block), the major cost is the labor to assemble it (which I am assuming he does not have the skills to accomplish, ie. his self-description as a "non repair specialist")

roweenie "failing to see any controversy in my previous statement"
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
User avatar
The Big Ben
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 3169
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:54 am
Location: Port Townsend, WA

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by The Big Ben »

roweenie wrote:
The Big Ben wrote:Buying the entire 4v valve set (with tubes et. al) in BBb would be one option
I wasn't aware that this was an option. Could you supply your source, as I would be interested in this myself?['/quote]

The people who have converted top loader 3v horn to front loader 4v horns get 'em somewhere. Meinelschmidt? Hirshbruner?
The Big Ben wrote:another would be to buy at 4v block, attach the tubes from the 340 and craft a 4th set of tubes
This is essentially the same procedure as building a valve set from scratch (which I have already addressed, previously). Even though you may save some money by using recycled parts (provided the radii of the old crooks, especially #1 and #2, are correct for the new valve block), the major cost is the labor to assemble it (which I am assuming he does not have the skills to accomplish, ie. his self-description as a "non repair specialist")
OK. It's costly. Saw a sign in a gas station: "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

Done.
Lee Stofer
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:50 am

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by Lee Stofer »

In my experience, one can turn a Holton 340 BBb into a very nice 4-piston, or 4-piston/5th rotor BBb by ordering a Meinl-Weston/Melton Big Valve valveset, and specifying BBb-length slides. Baltimore Brass used to do this for customers. It is a very good fit. I had a customer bring me one of these custom horns. The owner was suspicious of the build quality, but I checked it out and told him that Beltimore Brass had done a very fine job. I serviced the instrument, and only did two very minor tweaks, and it was a glorious Holton 6/4 BBb with the benefit of a modern, 4-piston valveset. The instrument was designed for the .750"/.810" bore, and I'd strongly suggest keeping it that way.

To answer another post, it would not be easier to fit a valve-less bugle with a rotor valveset, primarily because of the 3rd and 4th valve tubing, that typically wraps around, through the body, and manifests itself into slides on the backside of the instrument. The 3rd and 4th circuits would likely have to be custom-bent and then braced-in to make this work, and the difference in labor cost would be substantial. It would be a pretty neat instrument, though!
Lee A. Stofer, Jr.
User avatar
bigboymusic
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:54 am
Location: Independence, MO

Re: Valve Set Question

Post by bigboymusic »

Any rough idea on what a MW BBflat block might run? I'm guessing 3500-4K???
Paul Weissenborn
St. Joseph Symphony Orchestra (MO)
Spirit of Independence Band
SJSO Quintet
Alex 163 CC
YEB 321S
Post Reply