3+3 valve tuba ??? Bookmark and Share

3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby marccromme » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:53 pm

I find it takes some training time to get used to a 5V non-compensated tuba fingerings, plus the little pinky schlepping the 4th is always hard to do in combinations involving 4+2 and 4+3
Then there are 4+2 - giving better intonation, but same issue with the little finger.

Now I got a silly idea: combining a 3V Eb tuba, adding a 3V Bb tuba valve set, makes automatically a 6V tuba in 3+3 layout. No little finger needed! Standard layout on both hands.

The Bb 3rd valve probably needs some length adjustment to function as an Eb 4th valve (lowering a quart from Eb), but the Bb1st circuit makes a perfect-in-tune Eb 5th, and the Bb 2nd a perfect Eb 6th valve.

Fingering is the same as a 4+2 layout, just with the difference that the quart valve is at the 3rd in left hand.

Everything is done using standard components - and Eb horn and an additional Bb valve set giving increasing bore towards the bell for free.

Silly or ingenious idea ??
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby hrender » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:33 pm

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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby iiipopes » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:53 pm

Comments:

1) the original Wieprecht-Moritz tubas had 3+2 or 3+3 fingerings, so there is nothing new in the world; and
2) The French C tuba functions in a similar manner.
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby The Big Ben » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:13 pm

iiipopes wrote:Comments:

1) the original Wieprecht-Moritz tubas had 3+2 or 3+3 fingerings, so there is nothing new in the world; and
2) The French C tuba functions in a similar manner.


Wessex sells a French C tuba. here's a link to the page showing it:

https://wessex-tubas.com/collections/tu ... tuba-tc236
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby marccromme » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:39 pm

Hal - what a nice looking tuba - what is it ?? What is the tuning of the left hand valves?

Both the Wessex and the original C-tuba have odd valve length - the idea oaf a 3+3 is to have the usual vlave length, just moving the right hand 4th til left hand 3rd. Anybody has don this?
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby hrender » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:58 pm

It's a tuba designed by Dr. Fred Young based on a King Pit tuba. Click on the pic above to get to Dr. Young's LinkedIn page. His CV is here. This blog post by his son explains the layout of the valves. You can also search on the board for old posts about/by Dr. Young describing his horn and his mouthpiece design.
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby bloke » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:45 pm

hrender wrote:It's a tuba designed by Dr. Fred Young based on a King Pit tuba. Click on the pic above to get to Dr. Young's LinkedIn page. His CV is here. This blog post by his son explains the layout of the valves. You can also search on the board for old posts about/by Dr. Young describing his horn and his mouthpiece design.


That's cool...but - were anyone else to play another's-design 6-valve tuba - any other person would soon discover some unintended serendipitous valve combinations - as well as some that were front-end planned which did not work out as well as originally hoped.
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby marccromme » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:48 pm

Thanks for the explanaiton of the Dr. Fred Young tuba layout. I never thought of using the 6 valves for 6 consecutive half-tone step lenght, such that no combinations are needed down to the tritonus E, only single valves. Cool idea.
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby bort » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:09 pm

Not to sound disrespectful, but there's not very much I like about that Fred Young tuba. If it works for him, great. But for me... "no thanks."
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby bloke » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:30 pm

It's an interesting mathematics project, but I've not found "bad intonation" on any/many King BBb tubas (regardless of two or four loops) in particular - with only 4 valves.
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby Steve Marcus » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:43 pm

Dr. Young’s son blogged:

I just uploaded two videos, and I hope to upload some more. The videos are on YouTube...In some of the videos I am playing the trombone part on a euphonium. In all the quintet videos my mother is playing the (french) horn part on a horn and my father is playing the tuba part on his monster BBb/EEE tuba. It has been nearly 20 years since the day this video was made. The link http://youtu.be/pdb3LHRv4YQ takes you to a tuba solo written by Georges Barboteu and performed by Dr. Frederick J. Young in Smethport, PA, USA.


The link indicated does not work. Where are these videos?
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby roweenie » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:58 pm

The concept of 6 semitone valves is nothing new - Adolphe Sax did it over 150 years ago.

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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby hrender » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:15 pm

Steve Marcus wrote:Dr. Young’s son blogged:

I just uploaded two videos, and I hope to upload some more. The videos are on YouTube...In some of the videos I am playing the trombone part on a euphonium. In all the quintet videos my mother is playing the (french) horn part on a horn and my father is playing the tuba part on his monster BBb/EEE tuba. It has been nearly 20 years since the day this video was made. The link http://youtu.be/pdb3LHRv4YQ" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank takes you to a tuba solo written by Georges Barboteu and performed by Dr. Frederick J. Young in Smethport, PA, USA.


The link indicated does not work. Where are these videos?


Not a great quality video, but here it is.



A couple more from the same performance:



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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby ValiantAdam » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:13 pm

Preview announcement: I'm collecting pictures now and will soon post my Wessex TC236 French C tuba for sale.

It's a marvelous instrument, and I enjoyed exploring the 6-valve configuration. However, I confess to my intermediate playing skills at this point in life, and this instrument is more than I can manage right now. I've got to focus on my current performance opportunities and I can do that much more quickly on my Jupiter XO 1680 CC tuba (which surprised me at how well this tuba plays!) and a Besson BE164 euphonium that I have. (I play other instruments, as well, which also need attention as the holiday season of 2019 approaches.)

Just in case you are in the market for the Wessex TC236 (lacquered brass model), post a reply and I will prioritize getting my for-sale ad posted.

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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby ValiantAdam » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:31 pm

Thanks to folks who responded to my posting about my intention to sell a Wessex TC236. During the 2019 holiday shopping season, I got it sold pretty quickly by posting it on Reverb. Buyer seemed pretty happy with it, so good for him! It was an expensive learning experience for me, although it was fun. But that's what I've been doing this year, so I'm content.

If you have any burning questions about this instrument, you can send me a PM and I'll try to answer them.

Meanwhile, in case you are reading this thread because you want a good CC tuba...

Although I'm only an intermediate player who is working his way back into playing shape, I would like to report my excellent experience with a new Jupiter XO 1680 CC tuba. A few years ago I was playing a Miraphone 186 CC 5V, but I never got quite as comfortable on that instrument as I immediately felt with the Jupiter. Maybe it's because I've generally preferred pistons to rotors. Maybe I should have looked for a Miraphone 1291 CC?, but those are out of my price range. But I feel that the 1680 operates very well, including that the tuning slides move as they should, for example; they are well fitted. I'm also finding that the pitches in different ranges seem very well centered. That is, as compared to the cheap instruments that I can't even get to play right, this 1680 leads me right into the correct pitch for each note I blow in both the low and middle ranges. (I'm not playing well in the higher ranges yet, so I can't report on those.)

If you're interested, you might still be able to land a good deal from "Quinn the Eskimo" at his Reverb store. I would think that schools would appreciate a good deal on a very decent instrument. If you decide to contact him, he might appreciate that "George in Kingwood, TX" has referred you. He seems like a very decent person and he's very helpful during the sales cycle. He would recognize me also because I bought my Jupiter 1680 and my Besson BE164 from him, both just recently.
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Re: 3+3 valve tuba ???

Postby bloke » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:30 pm

old thread dredged up.

4+2 vs. 3+3...whatever it is to which someone is accustomed... :|

A 4+2 (or 3+3) system solves most mathematical tuning problems - yeah...other than a tuba's own intonation anomalies (though, yeah, certain anomalies can work to a tuba's intonation advantage).

4+2 (other than being "manual" - as well as independent) isn't a whole lot different (in loop-lengths) from a 3+1 compensating ("automatic") system...
as the 3+1 front+back #2 loops together are the same length as #6 (in a 4+2) and the 3+1 front+back #1 loops together are the same length as #5 (in a 4+2). The only thing MISSING from a 4+2 (vs. 3+1 COMPENSATING) is the extra-long #3, but (obviously) MISSING from a 3+1 compensating is INDEPENDENT valves (which - on a 4+2 - can be mixed-and-matched).

Moreover, 4+2 (or, again, 3+3 with other combinations) finally solves the "2+4 vs. 5-2-3" problem (with 6-4), as well as the crazy-sharp 5-2-3-4 median low pitch problem (which is solved with 5-6-3-4).

With a 4+2 system, if a tuba has enough anomalies that the #1 slide must be nursed, it's probably best to trigger the #1 slide with the right hand thumb.

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