Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

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Worth
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Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Worth »

I've got an opportunity to play Eb with a local brass band and read both TC and BC. They have a band Eb (Yamaha I think) which I would have to somewhat share with another tubist who is a long standing member and uses it often for other purposes. Aside from the option of purchasing an Eb for the task, I read back in the forum archives where some folks (even a few pros) commented on using a CC as Eb. The deal with transposition is obviously no problem as TC parts can be read in BC with three flats added. Other than style challenges, are there any others I should be aware of including mouthpiece and horn selection between a Wisemann 900 and a rather ugly, but functional, Conn 2J? The Wisemann is a pretty nimble horn, but obviously lacks the focus of the horn intended. The 2J has more focus but I'll look like a slouch due to it's condition. Checks pockets for 2K for Marty's Wessex :cry: Thanks for any input
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by BopEuph »

bloke wrote:Since very few C tubas made these days sport bells in the size range of 15", I might - then - suggest (if not a 15" bell compensating Eb tuba) using an F tuba (15" or 16.5" bell) play the "Eb bass" part in a brass band.
You know, I've often suggested this to avid brass band players in the states--since CC and F are a bit more prominent here, that they could be used in lieu of BBb and Eb horns--and it seems to always be scoffed at. To me, it just makes sense, and might even add an American flare to the British brass band.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by TMurphy »

BopEuph wrote:
bloke wrote:Since very few C tubas made these days sport bells in the size range of 15", I might - then - suggest (if not a 15" bell compensating Eb tuba) using an F tuba (15" or 16.5" bell) play the "Eb bass" part in a brass band.
You know, I've often suggested this to avid brass band players in the states--since CC and F are a bit more prominent here, that they could be used in lieu of BBb and Eb horns--and it seems to always be scoffed at. To me, it just makes sense, and might even add an American flare to the British brass band.
Speaking as an American who plays in a brass band, I don't take much issue with using F tuba on the Eb part. Playing CC on the BBb part, though, is problematic. Reading Bb treble clef parts on a CC tuba is not a transposition many tuba players are familiar with, and when you get to those technical passages with lots of accidentals that are so common in brass band music, it's a recipe for disaster. I'm sure a dedicated player would get comfortable given enough time, but the handful of times we've had someone bring a CC to sub on the BBb part, it did not go well.

As for the OPs question, CC on the Eb part works. It's not ideal, but it can work. Before I joined my band, their Eb section was filled with people playing CC tubas for years. I was the first player they'd had in quite a while who actually played an Eb; now the whole section is playing compensating Eb tubas (we carry 3 Eb tubas).
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by swillafew »

Image

Those are the Eb readers on the 1291 and the PT6p, and the PT20P and myself on the 2182 are reading Bb music.

I am no expert on this, but locally it's an unregulated item how these parts are covered. Those youngsters all did a good job, I did ok for newbie at this type of playing.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Dan Bradley »

I have used both German F tubas and CC tubas in brass band, and I felt like a fool. It's not that it can't sound good...it can...it's just that tuba is the only instrument that seems to be given this flexibility. Like Bloke said, if you showed up to play the cornet part with a trumpet, then they would kick you out and not let you play. Same with a french horn to play the alto horn parts or a German oval tenorhorn to play the euphonium parts. With a tuba..they're just like...ok...tuba. I understand that tubas are expensive, but it will just never sound as authentic as playing the actual Eb/BBb compensating horns with piston valves, etc. At least the Brass Band of Battle Creek is honest in listing CC basses instead of BBb basses in their personnel.

I will take this a step further in the reverse to say that it is inauthentic to play BAT piston tubas or euphoniums in German brass bands. Again...it can sound good, but it will never sound as good as it should.

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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Worth »

All points well taken, thank you. Lots of food for thought, but I’m getting the vibe!
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by The Big Ben »

Bollocks to all of you.

A good friend has played his CC Hirshbrunner in the Puget Brass in Seattle on both the BBb and Eb part for 10 years. Sounds great and is well respected within the band.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote:To me...

It's not just "the sound", but "the regimentation" it a huge factor of the brass band culture.

When I see a perfectly-posed picture of a British band with immaculate uniforms, beautiful instruments, and two exactly-the-same compensating BBb tubas and two exactly-the-same compensating Eb tubas (particularly if they are OLD 15" bell Eb tubas ...probably, an old picture), that is "IT".
Indeed. And if the band is a "contesting" band, then the association rules may even dictate what instruments qualify.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Adam C. »

I'll preface this with the usual "I'm no expert but.."
Yes, a player using a CC tuba on the Eb part is better than nothing, and if it's a "for fun" community group they'll appreciate having the parts covered.

BUT... if you want to do the music and the ensemble justice, you're better off using an Eb if at all possible, or if you have to, an F tuba. The bass section in a good brass band isn't just one-size-fits-all octaves and divisi; there are layers of sound that are important, sometimes 4 layers when you get into serious rep. Using a big horn on the Eb bass parts will muddy the texture more than is necessary, in my humble opinion.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by ken k »

I was using a B&H Imperial Eb (with the 19" bell) for many years in the Lancaster BBB but I was playing the top Eb part and often felt the tone was too broad. I recently switched to a Miraphone Norwegian Star with a 15.5"(?) bell and I really like the more focused sound of the NS has over my previous B&H Imperial.

If you had a smaller CC tuba with a more focused tone (like say a Miraphone 184, or one of those little Yamaha 621?), I think it would work (and it would be easy enough to read the Eb parts),especially if you were playing the lower Eb parts and the players on the BBb parts had larger horns than you.

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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by iiipopes »

SteveP wrote:
bloke wrote: . . . and two exactly-the-same compensating Eb tubas (particularly if they are OLD 15" bell Eb tubas ...probably, an old picture), that is "IT".
Something like mine (see avatar)?
And a 3-valve comp (my favorite) at that, instead of 4-valve comp!!!
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by GC »

This is an old issue. From the current NABBA rules: "Parts designated for Eb or Bb Tuba may be played on tubas in any key." About any combination of the 4 keys possible has been used by someone. Some folks are adamant purists; some just feel that you use what you have. If your combination messes up your sound, the band pays for it. If it sounds good, it sounds good.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Tom Gregory »

I’ve played in two championship brass bands, Dominion and Illinois(though I wasn’t a member for the IL bands championships). Both were very good and adamant about playing BBb and Eb. I was able to borrow acceptable BBbs for the times I played with them. I totally get where they were coming from, especially participating in a few NABBA competitions. I sound better on my CCs and F and even my old 186 BBb. But having gone through this with two really good conductors, it’s about the music not the ego. If you use your CC, listen to the best players for style and timbre.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by swillafew »

What surprised me was sitting next to a guy (not pictured in my photo) who free lanced the octave whenever it suited his fancy. In a group where "rules are rules" about every little thing, I did not see that coming. Where a loud dynamic is marked, it robs 50 percent of the energy from what is available and ruins the voicing. End of rant.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Will Jones »

Neal Tidwell played a Scherzer CC and later a MW CC on the top part in the River City Brass Band. It sounded phenomenal, and remains some of the best tuba playing I've ever heard in my life. Of course they use horns rather than alto horns, and also Eb trumpet rather than Eb cornet. So there's some variance. But Neal sounded unreal.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote:...and the open low Eb, 2nd-valve low D, etc...were just as easy as with a Conn 14K sousaphone.
Hmm. There must be something to the "terminal node" theory of a large flare bell, since you compared the ease of privilege tones to a souzy, as my Besson 3-v comp with the 17" New Standard Bell would not play the privilege tones at all. Low E nat with all 3 valves was it.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by MaryAnn »

I played my 184 (3/4) CC on the Eb part in a British style brass band (altos, not French horns) for years. It worked fine and the conductor had no problem with it. It was smaller than the BBbs and so could "pass" visually as an Eb. My NStar is more facile in the higher range than the CC was, but the CC worked just fine.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Bob Kolada »

Using a large C on an Eb brass band part is about as appropriate as using a euphonium on a bass trombone brass band part...
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by EdFirth »

Well, since it is a British style brass band and therefore not for money one would think that you could bring whatever you like if you can cover the part. Although it strikes me as somewhat like playing a bass bone on the lead book or piccolo trumpet parts on a Bb or playing the soprano book on a tenor sax in a sax quartet. Sure there are folks who can do it but it sounds different. If some of you have heard the Brits play they are very BLEND orientated and I at least, find it easier to blend with the Eb Bb thing throughout the band. Not that it can't be done the other way, but not everyone in the group is a full time pro and it gets everyone more on the same page right off. But as stated above if the group is going for a more Americanized sound and everyone is on board why not use what you are comfortable with and just have some yuks.Merry Christmas All, Ed
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by DonShirer »

     As an owner of a compensated Eb myself, I'd say that if you can play the part on your CC, then go for it. If they turned to you as a last resort, it would be rather gauche of them to complain about your horn if they can't supply an Eb themselves. I bet better than 90% of the typical audience couldn't hear a differernce anyway.
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