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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby roweenie » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:38 pm

At first, I hadn't really given this MSRP "discrepancy" much thought (as MSRP is basically a fictional number that you'd have to be a fool to pay), but I've got to say that the phrase "somewhat exaggerated" is "somewhat understated". It's one thing to compare the model number to the current MSRP (which may or may not be correct) but it's another thing entirely to compare it to what is essentially a completely different instrument.

The actual selling price, reasonable or not, is irrelevant to this discussion - it's the comparison being drawn that IS relevant, as this comparison is being used as a selling point. Not everyone buying tubas is as informed as we are here on this forum; words actually mean something, and one should choose them wisely.

At best, it can be attributed to a lack of knowledge of the product (as suggested by Kiltie), but even then, the suspected lack of product knowledge does not instill much confidence, at least as far as I'm concerned.

(This reminds me of the York/Yorkmaster comparisons I have seen being made - other than the word "York" in the name, they are essentially different instruments, giving them corresponding different value).
Last edited by roweenie on Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby bloke » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:57 pm

sheesh...
I sure wish I had read this instead:

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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby groth » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:05 pm

roweenie wrote:At first, I hadn't really given this MSRP "discrepancy" much thought (as MSRP is basically a fictional number that you'd have to be a fool to pay), but I've got to say that the phrase "somewhat exaggerated" is "somewhat understated". It's one thing to compare the model number to the current MSRP (which may or may not be correct) but it's another thing entirely to compare it to what is essentially a completely different instrument.

The actual selling price, reasonable or not, is irrelevant to this discussion - it's the comparison being drawn that IS relevant, as this comparison is being used as a selling point. Not everyone buying tubas is as informed as we are here on this forum; words actually mean something, and one should choose them wisely.

At best, it can be attributed to a lack of knowledge of the product (as suggested by Kiltie), but even then, the suspected lack of product knowledge does not instill much confidence, at least as far as I'm concerned.

(This reminds me of the York/Yorkmaster comparisons I have seen being made - other than the word "York" in the name, they are essentially different instruments, giving them corresponding different value).

This was my point from the beginning. This is probably a decent horn either way, but the description. :idea:
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby Donn » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:06 pm

roweenie wrote:but it's another thing entirely to compare it to what is essentially a completely different instrument.


Just to give this important matter its due consideration, how true is that? I can think of some cases where the same ID has been given to a different tuba - Conn 36K fiberglass sousaphone, that name now applies to historically a King model I believe. In this case though, they're comparing with arguably the current revision of the same 2341 design, which may have some improvements (?) but lacks the sought-after detachable bell feature. (ha ha.) The difference just happens to be more conspicuous, than if they'd changed valve plating, or the manner in which the big parts are formed, etc. Do they really play different?
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby roweenie » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:39 pm

bloke wrote:sheesh...
I sure wish I had read this instead:

Image


Maybe to you, but maybe not to someone who doesn't possess your/my/our knowledge.

Donn wrote:
roweenie wrote:but it's another thing entirely to compare it to what is essentially a completely different instrument.


Just to give this important matter its due consideration, how true is that? I can think of some cases where the same ID has been given to a different tuba - Conn 36K fiberglass sousaphone, that name now applies to historically a King model I believe. In this case though, they're comparing with arguably the current revision of the same 2341 design, which may have some improvements (?) but lacks the sought-after detachable bell feature. (ha ha.) The difference just happens to be more conspicuous, than if they'd changed valve plating, or the manner in which the big parts are formed, etc. Do they really play different?


Actually, yes, they do play different from each other. Aside from the sought-after detachable bell feature (ha, ha, I own a few horns like this, just for that reason), the bells have an entirely different profile from each other - and the way King was able to add length to a drastically shortened instrument (the height difference is at least 6") was to add more cylindrical tubing on the MTS, so now the taper is significantly different, too. In fact, although I haven't looked at the parts lists recently, I don't think any of the bugle parts are interchangeable between the two horns - I certainly know that the bell, 5th branch, and dogleg are decidedly not. (Edit - the bottom bow, top bow, 3rd and 4th branches are in fact identical, but that is all....however, the bell alone is so radically different as to make it a completely different instrument, and I was correct that the 5th branch and dogleg are different, as is the mouthpipe).

The difference in this instance to your Conn/King analogy is that those manufacturers didn't quote the MSRP of a different horn with the same model number to try and tell someone who is buying a used horn that they are getting a screaming deal.

As I said earlier, I originally didn't think this was such a big deal - but I guess it all boils down to how much attention one desires to give to a description that is accurate in its details.

roweenie "who suffers from a severe case of OCD" :cry:
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby bloke » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:10 pm

It appears to be straightened out "ok", and former brown spots seem to have been shined up and hit with gold-tint rattle-can Nikolas lacquer.

if worth around $3K to you, bid.

If not, send me $3K for my 1974 Fender Jazz Bass (which I bought from a friend in 1975).

Hey, my bass guitar is ACTUALLY valued at $10,000, so... :|
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby BopEuph » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:36 pm

bloke wrote:If not, send me $3K for my 1974 Fender Jazz Bass (which I bought from a friend in 1975).

Hey, my bass guitar is ACTUALLY valued at $10,000, so... :|


Now this, this is a deal. I probably know some collectors who might be interested in that instrument, Duck's son being one of them...
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby greenbean » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:20 am

The sloppiness (and weirdness) of the eBay posting is strange, I will say, given the good reputation of Wichita Band. I have bought several woodwinds from them (back on the ol' days) and they were straight-shooters. Back then - and probably today - they specialized in woodwinds. So... I am willing to be somewhat forgiving of the employee who posted the tuba and their lack of expertise in low brass. They are not exactly trying to scam anyone, after all.
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby bort » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:09 am

The original ad has been updated with more information -- photos of the tuba and the pricelist, with corrections and more details.

Time to put this to rest! :tuba:
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby groth » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:36 am

bort wrote:The original ad has been updated with more information -- photos of the tuba and the pricelist, with corrections and more details.

Time to put this to rest! :tuba:

Yes, we're right back to square 1 again.
What we have learned is: A)This horn is a good value for $2850 (I guess if you're in the market for one) and
B)He's still promoting a price list that doesn't reflect the actual refurbished horn in question nor does anyone in the private market ever pay those numbers even for a "new" 2341. :roll:
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby lost » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:31 am

He is clearly confused and has not made the distinction between old and new versions. What else need be posted?
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby Mark Finley » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:48 am

Yeah.... Those new pictures they posted... I think I liked the old ones better. Kind of a half assed lacquer job.

I did think it was funnt that they posted a pic of the retail price from some sort of catalog. It's funny they chose the pride for a silver horn



Nobody here thinks the eBay asking price is too high, but I think we all can agree that bumping up the "bargain" aspect of the listing by posting a MSRP from a brand new silver horn left a bad taste in our mouths. Wichita is a fine company, they can better than this.
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby toobagrowl » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:15 pm

Wichita Band has always sorta "hyped up" the MSRP of many horns the have for sale, while usually having a good/reasonable actual sale price for said horns. I just skip over their MSRP 'talk' and look at the actual sale price, and it is usually pretty good :!:

Ya know, the King 2341 (esp. the tall/detachable bell model from the 1980s-90s) is a very good tuba as is. But I think it could have been an awesome tuba had it been equipped with a larger .728" or .734" valveset bore, and a 5th rotor @ .750" or so. Just think about it :tuba:
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby tofu » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:52 am

Most folks here wouldn't be fooled by the phony MSRP and many of us have the knowledge and experience to understand that there is an old 2341 and a new style 2341, to know that refurbished is not new and that "refurbished" can mean many things. We know that the most expensive part of the horn are the valves and that what gets passed off as refurbished often doesn't include a valve job. A shiny but old horn with poor valves is not usually a good investment. I think what bothers many of us in this thread is not that any of us are fooled by this ad, but for example maybe some single parent kid has been busting his butt working and saving his nickels to buy a tuba and mom scrimps and comes up with the difference and buys this thing and has it delivered. While we know that all tubas of the same brand don't play the same (especially refurbished ones) uninformed buyers might assume they are like buying a Mr. Coffee coffee maker and the one you buy from Best Buy will perform the same as the one you buy on Amazon. That's what bothers me about ad - it is misleading at best and some young uninformed buyer / parent may end up with something other than what they thought they were buying. And how many parents are going to know that to fix bad valves is not cheap and to do so means making that shiny horn a lot less shiny. I liked to think that maybe we help keep sellers honest so that the less informed don't get taken advantaged of.

This type of misleading MSRP goes on all the time on Groupon and they have taken some real heat for it. They sell refurbished Apple laptops and they would list current apple laptops MSRP. Several years ago they wouldn't even state that the item was refurbished or even when it was made. The prices looked great - 40% off and people snapped them up - only to find out they were buying a seven year old laptop - whose specs weren't upgraded. Well you know apple only supports them for about 8 years and even then you better have a pretty robust set up if you want to run the latest op systems etc. Groupon still sells them with the compare to prices of a new one, but now does list that they are refurbished. People still have to ask in the question section when they were made. Saving a few hundred bucks on a old laptop that will have a hard time with the latest software and so many parts that a refurb won't touch unless they aren't working, like a power supply which can fail in an instant, is hardly a bargain IMHO.

There are indeed many products that can be great buys that are refurbished - but sellers need to make it clear that they are refurbished and the age and there needs to be some type of disclaimer about the compare to MSRP prices of new ones. There have been laws enacted in some states the last few years that deal with the so called discount clothing outlets. They used to mislead people that you were getting the same top shelf merchandise as the named brand - they led buyers to believe they were selling the overstock or discontinued items from the famous brand clothing company. Turned out most of the stuff was made specifically to be sold in the outlet and was made of cheaper material with much less attention to sewing quality etc. and the list or compare to price was fabricated BS. I think the same type of laws need to be developed for the refurb market.
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby lost » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:42 am

I have no pity for someone who buys this(it's nice!). I have no pity for anyone who believes ANY MSRP. I have no pity for anyone who doesn't research before making a big buy like this.
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby rperrym » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:34 pm

Taylor Music has one for $2550 that has been recently overhauled. Description on their website sounds like it is in nice shape.
Knowing them, I would bet it is.

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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby edsel585960 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:36 pm

lost wrote:I have no pity for someone who buys this(it's nice!). I have no pity for anyone who believes ANY MSRP. I have no pity for anyone who doesn't research before making a big buy like this.
Amen. Do your homework before buying.
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby groth » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:04 pm

The rest of us have no pity for dishonesty in listing ads. Whoever gets this horn however will be happy with it either way.
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby lost » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:44 pm

When i was a kid collecting comic books, i used to value each of my books as the highest book value in near mint condition. Naturally they weren't in mint condition, but in my eyes i believed they were worth that or could be worth that. Was I being dishonest? or did i really believe they could be worth that? I have no pity for those who assume the worst of people.
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Re: Refurbished King 2341

Postby the elephant » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:00 pm

Image
TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
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