Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

The bulk of the musical talk
Xenol
lurker
lurker
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:49 am

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Xenol »

I'd advise against it for competing, depending on the judging body, some stipulate that the band has only Eb and Bb basses. http://www.nationalbrassbandchampionships.com/the-rules" target="_blank

For entertainment It's possible, but again not advisable, I can't imagine it'd blend very well, especially as you get into the upper range.
User avatar
AndyCat
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:11 am
Location: Preston, UK
Contact:

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by AndyCat »

The EEb part is the bridge between the Euphs and the BBb's, so if you can sound light and floaty some of the time on CC, fill your boots. And as mentioned, any is better than none.

BUT I'd always prefer EEb and BBb in a brass band. It's a niche thing. Even the non comps don't work unless in really good hands. (Mike Johnson plays a Cerveny BBb in Grimethorpe currently).

I have to agree with bloke. It's just "a thing". It works as it is.
Andy Cattanach, UK
Fodens Band, Intrada Brass Ensemble.
Yamaha Neo BBb x 2 (2011 and 2016), B+H 3v Imperial BBb.
Yamaha YBL613H Bass Trombone.
Mercer and Barker MB5 Cattanach, Yeo Signature Mouthpieces.
eeflattuba
bugler
bugler
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:24 pm

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by eeflattuba »

In the almost 30 years I have played tuba with the saskatoon brass band we have a variety of different combinations of tubas played. As their is shortage of tuba players in this part of the world we have take what we can get.Our current line up seems to work the best.. I play on a besson soverign 981 ee flat while my stand partner plays on an imperial e flat compensating 3 valve tuba with a 15 inch bell.It is a great tuba for playing the upper e flat parts and the solos.Our bb flat section consists of a young man plying my bb Yamaha neo tuba which has a 19 inch bell.His stand partner plays on a ybb 321 which I believe has a 17 inch bell.Our conductor, a former percussionist, with grimethorpe, a top band in the UK,very much prefers this lineup.
eeflattuba
bugler
bugler
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:24 pm

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by eeflattuba »

bloke wrote:
eeflattuba wrote:In the almost 30 years I have played tuba with the saskatoon brass band we have a variety of different combinations of tubas played. As their is shortage of tuba players in this part of the world we have take what we can get.Our current line up seems to work the best.. I play on a besson soverign 981 ee flat while my stand partner plays on an imperial e flat compensating 3 valve tuba with a 15 inch bell.It is a great tuba for playing the upper e flat parts and the solos.Our bb flat section consists of a young man plying my bb Yamaha neo tuba which has a 19 inch bell.His stand partner plays on a ybb 321 which I believe has a 17 inch bell.Our conductor, a former percussionist, with grimethorpe, a top band in the UK,very much prefers this lineup.
To me, this grouping seems plenty authentic/correct.
The imperial tuba i speak of is a fantastic tuba. While it will not win any beauty contests it perhaps one of the finest tubas i have ever played.We recently had a larger mouthpiece receiver installed on the horn, plus a complete overhaul.For an almost 50 year old tuba it plays fantastic.I will even, from time to time,play it a very good brass quintet i play in.It has a very dark and rich sound.As a sidelight, i use a denis wick classic gold plated 3L mouthpiece while my friend uses a gold plated denis wick heritage 3XL on the imperial.The sound coming out the ee flat tuba section right now is very good.
marccromme
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:42 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by marccromme »

I see no big problem using a CC for the lower part of an Eb brass band chart, especially if it is not a monstrous large CC. Many times it will be in a comfortable range. Sometimes even going down to E or D ( sounding G or F one over the pedal Eb). But playing the upper Eb part might be a challenge, they might go up to c with two ledger lines above the staff (sounding eb) or higher. This works better on smaller Eb tubas or even F tubas, as others have stated.
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
Alto/tenor/bass trombones in various sizes/plugs
User avatar
Worth
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 451
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:44 am

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Worth »

As the OP I would like to thank everyone for their knowledge and perspectives. If i were a pro, I might pull up with my CC just to wow people, but handled improperly it could also be an embarrassment. I've just secured a 15" bell mid-70s Imperial in outstanding condition from someone on this forum. Great valves too, even has the bottom bow spear (ouch). History of a small main tuning slide cut, but no other cuts to date. It's coming with an American shank receiver attached, and a British receiver on the side in case. More accomplished than me, the seller commented it plays best with a small shank Wick 3, shimmed. I dig the upper divisi parts, and realize this may not be the ultimate horn for the application, for me it's the bomb and a great mate for my mid-70s Besson New Standard Euph. I've already got a small shank Wick 2, ready to go and excited awaiting the fate of the Greyhound Gods.
:tuba:
2014 Wisemann 900 with Laskey 30H
~1980 Cerveny 4V CC Piggy
1935 Franz Schediwy BBb
1968 Conn 2J (thinking of selling)
Bob Kolada
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2632
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:57 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Bob Kolada »

Congrats on the new horn!
User avatar
Worth
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 451
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:44 am

Re: Using Eb as Eb in Brass Band

Post by Worth »

Bob Kolada wrote:Congrats on the new horn!
Thanks so much, I've been waiting to post a decent picture after a basic polish. Tuning and tendencies seem all well under control. I consider myself lucky to have found such a functional cool piece of history.
:tuba:
Image
2014 Wisemann 900 with Laskey 30H
~1980 Cerveny 4V CC Piggy
1935 Franz Schediwy BBb
1968 Conn 2J (thinking of selling)
tclements
TubeNet Sponsor
TubeNet Sponsor
Posts: 1465
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:49 am
Location: Campbell, CA
Contact:

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by tclements »

In my brass band (Mission Peak Brass Band) I have 3 CCs and one F. As long as the sound is right and the right notes come out the bell, I don't think it really matters what key tuba you are playing. There might be requirements if one was to enter competitions, however.
kathott
bugler
bugler
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Canada

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by kathott »

Please don’t tinker with the BB line-up of 2 x Eb & 2 x BBb. The composers/arrangers thought things through back when.....There is a sound difference, and more important a delivery difference when one starts to substitute. Just exchange viola for the 2nd violin in a quartet and watch the world collapse. These kinds of substitutions - trumpets for cornets, F horns for tenor horns, euphonium for baritone, and a mess in the bass section - all serve to undermine a traditional sound. Don’t “make do” with the wrong equipment. Yes, there are discreet changes afoot in the U.K., a few in the thousands of bands, but those players have well established sounds in their ears. K.
Schmenge Kaiser EEb, 3 valve (two rotors, one piston), with a Kosicup mouthpiece (9.2 mm)
jr2262euph
lurker
lurker
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:59 pm

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by jr2262euph »

Amen to that. You're exactly right kathott.
LibraryMark
bugler
bugler
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:26 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by LibraryMark »

kathott wrote:Please don’t tinker with the BB line-up of 2 x Eb & 2 x BBb. The composers/arrangers thought things through back when.....There is a sound difference, and more important a delivery difference when one starts to substitute. Just exchange viola for the 2nd violin in a quartet and watch the world collapse. These kinds of substitutions - trumpets for cornets, F horns for tenor horns, euphonium for baritone, and a mess in the bass section - all serve to undermine a traditional sound. Don’t “make do” with the wrong equipment. Yes, there are discreet changes afoot in the U.K., a few in the thousands of bands, but those players have well established sounds in their ears. K.
If they don't have the proper equipment, they should stay home? People should be able to "tinker" as much as they like. As a person who has composed and arranged, I would rather my work be played by whatever a person has on hand. Making it a requirement that you have the perfect instrument for a part is a recipe for the extinction of brass bands.
VMI 3302 BBb
Mack Brass TU410S CC
John Packer JP377 Eb
3 King 2280 Euph's (you can never have too many)
User avatar
MaryAnn
Occasionally Visiting Pipsqueak
Occasionally Visiting Pipsqueak
Posts: 3217
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:58 am

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by MaryAnn »

Maybe a brass brand in Britain needs the exact instruments, but amateur BBs in the US have to take what they can get to play the part. CC on either part, if the notes are hit, is way better than nobody on the part. At least that's what the local conductor finds to be true.
User avatar
GC
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Rome, GA (between Rosedale and Armuchee)

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by GC »

The sound depends on the individuals. (It also depends on the equipment if some of the horns are very difficult to play in tune or with a blended sound, but that's pretty much only in the negative.) I've heard groups with 2 BBb's and 2 Eb's that just don't sound that good because the players aren't that good. I've heard groups with one tuba in each key, 2 CC's and 2 F's, 2 CC's and 2 Eb's, CC's and BBb's reading Eb parts because the players are just learning to read treble clef or can't read it at all, and F or Eb players on both parts. And of course, you have groups with 2, 3, 5, 6 or more players in every possible combination because they're what's available.

If the players are good enough, the mixed sections or 1-step-off sections can sound absolutely great. Sounding perfect? That's unlikely with any section of any instrument. If what you have isn't the "ideal", play with who you have and what you have. After all, how many bands can afford a matched set of really good tubas in the "proper" keys? Would a matched set of inferior BBb and Eb tubas be an improvement just because of their keys?
JP/Sterling 377 compensating Eb; Warburton "The Grail" T.G.4, RM-9 7.8, Yamaha 66D4; for sale > 1914 Conn Monster Eb (my avatar), ca. 1905 Fillmore Bros 1/4-size Eb, Bach 42B trombone
User avatar
GC
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Rome, GA (between Rosedale and Armuchee)

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by GC »

Somewhat related to the topic, how many British bands depend on the players to buy their own instruments, and how many provide instruments? How common is it for the providing bands to get instruments through corporate or civic sponsorship vs groups that have to raise funds?
JP/Sterling 377 compensating Eb; Warburton "The Grail" T.G.4, RM-9 7.8, Yamaha 66D4; for sale > 1914 Conn Monster Eb (my avatar), ca. 1905 Fillmore Bros 1/4-size Eb, Bach 42B trombone
User avatar
ken k
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2369
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:02 pm
Location: out standing in my field....

Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Post by ken k »

if you have a small CC like a Yamaha 621 (?) or a Miraphone 184, that would be fine.
I think the Eb parts should be played on smaller horns than the BBb parts.
I know it is not the traditional set up but I think it would work.
k
Yamaha YEB-381
Mirafone 187 BBb
1919 Pan American BBb Helicon
1924 Buescher BBb tuba (Dr. Suessaphone)
Black plastic Coolwind BBb tuba
2001 Mazda Miata
2006 Suzuki Burgman 650
Post Reply