.748" bore is boring

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Waiting on a vintage tow truck

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by roweenie »

Well, I'm no mathematician, but my rough ciphering says the difference in displacement between bore sizes of 19mm and 18mm of cylindrical tubing on a BBb tuba is 114.5 cubic centimeters....does that mean anything? I don't know, but having experimented with pasting different bore size valve sets onto the same horn, I have empirical evidence that bore size does make a difference in the final outcome, YMMV.
Last edited by roweenie on Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
User avatar
iiipopes
Utility Infielder
Utility Infielder
Posts: 8554
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:10 am

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by iiipopes »

Hmmm. How about measuring the effective bore? The same bore size block is going to play "smaller" if the leadpipe is longer, say like a typical rotary BBb with the long looping leadpipe, than a shorter straight-in leadpipe. Has anybody factored that into the equation? For example, the historical Besson bore was .730 for the BBb New Standards, but because the leadpipe was so short, it played much larger. And the Miraphone bore on the 186 was historically .770, but with the really long looping leadpipe played much smaller. And the Conn .734 for the 14K and similar souzys, well, as observed, plays just right (and we all wish Conn would develop a next generation 4/4 "Donatelli" or similar). I do agree on the Martin: some years ago I was in a music store that had an old Mammoth on display, and they let me play it. I was surprised at the response and intonation. But at the time I owned both the Besson I used to own and had just gotten the Miraphone, so I did not need another tuba!
Jupiter JTU1110, RT-82.
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by Donn »

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Swapping different sized valve sets on the same tuba, there should be a difference. But comparing different tubas, which seems to be the point, the size of valve set relates to the overall outcome in unpredictable ways, depending for example on where the valve section is located in the bugle. If I had designed a tuba, with .748 valve bore, I'd be somewhat resistant to the idea the design could be improved by the simple expedient of reducing the bore size by .022 in, without changing anything else, so it would really mean going back to the drawing board for a new design altogether - and at that point, it's no longer just about the bore size.
User avatar
cambrook
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 547
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:50 pm
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by cambrook »

It would be great if there was more choice available to makers - unfortunately the options have shrunk. I think Willson still make their pistons in-house, Bauerfind is now owned by Adams, and MW have moved to use only using their "Big Valves" on their tubas for cost reasons.

As a result some tubas that used to have smaller valves are now a bit compromised in their design, and often the newer versions have a bit less character.
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by Donn »

Trumpets aren't conical.
toobagrowl
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1525
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:12 pm
Location: USA

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by toobagrowl »

Whenever something becomes super common it becomes boring. So yeah, the super-common .748" valve bore and the widespread proliferation of York-a-phones and York-inspired tubas are boring to me.
I thinking at this point, both have just about been "maxed out".

Sure, I'd like to see more tubas with the .718", .728" and .734" valve bores. My old POS "practice tuba" YBB-201, and Selmer Signet sousa both have the same .728" valve bore; my Elkhart Conn 14k sousa has a .734" valve bore. They were all old instruments I rescued, got parts for and fixed up, and they all play very well for 3v BBb instruments.
User avatar
bttmbow
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:04 am
Location: in front of the timpani

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by bttmbow »

Joe, I agree with you. Bore sizes should be looked at in newer designs. If the bugle works, bore size could be smaller on some instruments, but not all. This is a point that many tuba makers should be thinking about, in my opinion. My old BBb York Master had the same bore on the fourth valve as the first three valves, and had a better low FF than most horns I have ever played. Go figure. Seacrest out.
User avatar
iiipopes
Utility Infielder
Utility Infielder
Posts: 8554
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:10 am

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by iiipopes »

Donn wrote:Trumpets aren't conical.
Well, yes trumpets are. Just not to the extent of other brass instruments. But all brass instruments have to have a degree of conicity, or the overtone partials structure that we rely on to play more than one octave won't line up to anything near what we consider Western tonal music. But don't just take my word for it:

https://acousticstoday.org/wp-content/u ... /Brass.pdf" target="_blank
Jupiter JTU1110, RT-82.
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Waiting on a vintage tow truck

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by roweenie »

Donn wrote:Trumpets aren't conical
Wow, I totally misread that - I thought he wrote, "trumpets aren't comical"....

(I was assuming he hasn't met some of the trumpet players I've worked with over the years.... :shock: )
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
User avatar
Conn 2J CC
bugler
bugler
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:15 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by Conn 2J CC »

There seems to be considerable interest within this thread in tubas with a bore size around .726” - .734”. I recently went looking through websites of current manufactures specifically for BBb horns in this range, which is the same as my Conn 32J BBb (.734”). The one I found of interest to me is Jupiter’s JTU1110, their four-pistons-in-front horn. Woodwind and Brasswind says it has a .732” bore, but Jupiter’s website says it’s .732” - .788”. Cascio Music says the same thing of Jupiter’s XO CC tuba, with four pistons and a rotary (.732” - .788”). This leads me to wonder if all four pistons on both horns are actually .732”, and the rotary of the CC horn is .788”. I should have the opportunity to find out the first weekend in February – I’ll be going to a rehearsal at a high school, and their band has a set of JTU1110s. Their director has already agreed to let me try them, since I may be interested in finding one on the used market. My 32J has many good qualities, but I’m wondering if would be more satisfied with a comparable sized horn that isn’t so mammoth.
Dave
Low Brass musician and Bass Guitarist
User avatar
iiipopes
Utility Infielder
Utility Infielder
Posts: 8554
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:10 am

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by iiipopes »

Conn 2J CC wrote:There seems to be considerable interest within this thread in tubas with a bore size around .726” - .734”. I recently went looking through websites of current manufactures specifically for BBb horns in this range, which is the same as my Conn 32J BBb (.734”). The one I found of interest to me is Jupiter’s JTU1110, their four-pistons-in-front horn. Woodwind and Brasswind says it has a .732” bore, but Jupiter’s website says it’s .732” - .788”. Cascio Music says the same thing of Jupiter’s XO CC tuba, with four pistons and a rotary (.732” - .788”). This leads me to wonder if all four pistons on both horns are actually .732”, and the rotary of the CC horn is .788”. I should have the opportunity to find out the first weekend in February – I’ll be going to a rehearsal at a high school, and their band has a set of JTU1110s. Their director has already agreed to let me try them, since I may be interested in finding one on the used market. My 32J has many good qualities, but I’m wondering if would be more satisfied with a comparable sized horn that isn’t so mammoth.
Having played one when visiting a friend of mine at his school, yes, the regular 4 pistons are .732, at least on the BBb. The European version of the web site has listed 18.6mm.
Jupiter JTU1110, RT-82.
User avatar
TubaKen
bugler
bugler
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by TubaKen »

iiipopes wrote
Well, yes they are
Come on guys, you know Donn meant trumpets are "mostly" not conical. Sure, there's a flared bell, but probably 80% of the instrument is cylindrical (if you include the valves.)
What most struck me in the linked article about brass acoustics was this
Professional brass players may have from 3 to 10 different mouthpieces. As a general rule, the better the player is, the fewer the number of mouthpieces used, but most players
have at least two or three that are regularly used.
This was referencing the trumpet specifically. Multiply that number by 10 or 20, and you might be getting close! :lol:
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by Donn »

TubaKen wrote: Come on guys, you know Donn meant trumpets are "mostly" not conical. Sure, there's a flared bell, but probably 80% of the instrument is cylindrical (if you include the valves.)
Well, to be precise, the trumpet belongs to an acoustically distinct branch of the brass family, along with trombones, which is generally considered to be "cylindrical", where the tuba belongs to the "conical" family. If there's any dispute about that, it's news to me.

The question of exactly how cylindrical, is perhaps more interesting for brass instruments that don't fall directly into those two categories - or where it's a matter of dispute. Cornet and French horn might be examples of the former; I'd put British baritone in the latter. I know there are those who insist that it's "cylindrical", but it looks to me to be essentially the tenor member of the saxhorn family, below the alto horn. Here I think we return to the question of the importance of valve bore: the baritone's bugle gradual expands along its length, as can easily be seen on casual examination, even if it doesn't expand anywhere near as much as the euphonium, so the valves are invariably small relative to the average diameter and have to be installed near the small end, at a location where the bugle diameter is smaller. A valve trombone's valves on the other hand are, like the trumpet's, routinely installed at about the midpoint, and valve diameter is definitional for these instruments.
User avatar
Dan Schultz
TubaTinker
TubaTinker
Posts: 10423
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Newburgh, Indiana
Contact:

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by Dan Schultz »

gionvil wrote:This is a very interesting thread. After many years playing .728, .689 and .750 tubas I really feel that now the best for me is the .728 or possibly .734 bore. Which piston CC tubas are available on the market new or used with the latter bore size? Are the Bohm & Meinl - Marzans .734?
The Bohm & Meinl-built Marzans in CC and BBb... both piston and rotary models were .748" bore.
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker"
http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
User avatar
iiipopes
Utility Infielder
Utility Infielder
Posts: 8554
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:10 am

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by iiipopes »

Here you go: the specs for a Rudy Meinl "3/4" BBb tuba (which is what everybody else would call a "4/4" tuba): 17" bell; .730 bore.
Link to catalog: http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/fileadmin/te ... ospekt.pdf" target="_blank
3-4_B_Tuba_4_Zylinder_Ventile.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Jupiter JTU1110, RT-82.
User avatar
MaryAnn
Occasionally Visiting Pipsqueak
Occasionally Visiting Pipsqueak
Posts: 3217
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:58 am

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by MaryAnn »

gionvil wrote:This is a very interesting thread. After many years playing .728, .689 and .750 tubas I really feel that now the best for me is the .728 or possibly .734 bore. Which piston CC tubas are available on the market new or used with the latter bore size? Are the Bohm & Meinl - Marzans .734?
I find it interesting for a different reason....my NStar has bore from .772 to .835 but it does not suck the air out of my lungs like a longer bugle with a smaller bore. (same mouthpiece.)
gionvil
bugler
bugler
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:10 pm
Location: Moltrasio, Italy

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by gionvil »

MaryAnn wrote:
gionvil wrote:This is a very interesting thread. After many years playing .728, .689 and .750 tubas I really feel that now the best for me is the .728 or possibly .734 bore. Which piston CC tubas are available on the market new or used with the latter bore size? Are the Bohm & Meinl - Marzans .734?
I find it interesting for a different reason....my NStar has bore from .772 to .835 but it does not suck the air out of my lungs like a longer bugle with a smaller bore. (same mouthpiece.)

That can be another solution, I never thought about going "shorter"...
joh_tuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm

Re: .748" bore is boring

Post by joh_tuba »

Just buy a rotary tuba. Much more modular. You can go up and down in size willy-nilly and put the valves anywhere you like in the bugle as long as you come up with a paddle system to match.

Look at the million variations on bore that have have been offered on MW F tubas.
Post Reply