Where are Chinese tubas built?

[butch]

Sidebar -- what is the reason for "Made in EC" (European Community). I've seen that on stuff made in Lithuania.

I don't see the point. It says made in EU, Lithuania is part of the EU.

He is referring to the ambiguity of the place of production. The EU does not mean Lithuania and could refer to France, Germany, or anywhere else in that "community" just as China can refer to a lot of city's and production plants.

Yes, you're right, but "Made in EU" means that there are some minimal standards in production, that have to be granted. For example minimal wages (I know that they are really minimal!).

[Three Valves]

I've got to get me a Bass...

But who needs five strings??

Don't know if he _needs_ six strings but lay even a vague approximation of this on me with your J-Bass and I will be sorely impressed.

WTF??

That ain't no 12 bar blues??

Well I did it, got me a Fender Jazz Standard four string and amp over the weekend.

[Rick Denney]

I would like that on my tuba there would be somewhere clearly fully manually engraved something like "Bejging Manufacturing Plant, Made in China" . Also if there "must be" a dealers logo I would like that that that again been again fully manually engraved instead of that (little irritating) laser "engave". But all that would demand more work.... (prices...).

You mean like "Sanders" on a label that, once peeled off, reveals a label underneath that says "Amati", but that really was made by the Cerveny part of Amati and not the Amati part, and the Amati was put there to denote a low price point?

The only time I particularly care about what's on the label is when it adds value in my mind. When I see Hirsbrunner, I know something about it, and the people who made it. If I saw "First Beijing Musical Instrument Factory" would I care? They have not yet earned that brand value. But we do have country of origin laws that should be obeyed.

Rick "not thinking anyone is really confused about where specific cheap tubas are made" Denney

[bort]

About a month ago, I remember seeing a tuba on eBay that looked like a Miraphone 191, but had a clearly Chinese name (like Xiao Chan Music Instrument Co... it wasn't that , but it was unmistakably Chinese). It made me wonder -- are there Chinese companies that engrave and sell tubas on their own, or is this actually the factory where they are built?

That's the one thing that has never made sense to me -- why don't the Chinese just skip the middlemen and sell what they make? The answer has something to do with their pseudo-capitalist/pseudo-communist system, and the manufacturing culture. Why waste the time and resources to sell things one at a time (for more money) when you can sell boatloads of them cheaper, and keep more people employed building them? And why worry about trying to build and grow a company and a *brand*... when the whole point is to make jobs for people?

[Three Valves]

Quality control also doesn't matter when your sole client is The Peoples Army.

[Rick Denney]

That's the one thing that has never made sense to me -- why don't the Chinese just skip the middlemen and sell what they make?

Because what they know about making quality instruments they learned from western experts. It's not like they can fall back on 300 years of instrument-making tradition. If I'm in the market for a price-point tuba made in China, I want to know that the instrument was approved by somebody who actually knows what they are doing--such as a Matt Walters, a Dick Barth or a Jonathon Hodgetts. Those guys are not just qualified endorsers, but they have their own (or their employer's or creditors') money at stake in making a quality product. And they are the ones designing the instruments, and making and servicing (and assuming the risk for) the market, which seems to me a bigger challenge than soldering bits of stamped brass together. That's why they get to put their own company names on the bell, just the same as with most manufactured products.

Rick "Kitchen Aid appliances are made by Whirlpool, but they are still made better than Whirlpool appliances in some key ways" Denney

[Michael Bush]

Rick "Kitchen Aid appliances are made by Whirlpool, but they are still made better than Whirlpool appliances in some key ways" Denney

May I just interrupt to say how glad I am that you're posting again. Such good sense. Nothing like it.

[Dan Schultz]

.... Rick "not thinking anyone is really confused about where specific cheap tubas are made" Denney

I'm glad to see your post. Seems to me you haven't been very active here lately. You should come around more often.

[Rick Denney]

.... Rick "not thinking anyone is really confused about where specific cheap tubas are made" Denney

I'm glad to see your post. Seems to me you haven't been very active here lately. You should come around more often.

May not last long. I'm on a plane tomorrow again. I renewed my Hilton Diamond status in September, and despite having flown on five airlines this year (United, Delta, Southwest, American, and Alaska), will renew United Premier Gold with the trip this week, all without leaving the 48 states. I thought taking a gubmint job would allow me to kick back the way Joe always suggests, but I've never worked so hard as I have in the last five years.

Rick "could be more active if Tubenet had a Tapatalk interface" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I think since Rick plays BOTH one of those Holton 345 clones AND one of the PT-10 clones, this thread caught his eye.

Rick "don't forget that Hirsbrunner kaiser clone" Denney

[roweenie]

It really doesn't take long to quality-point evaluate a musical instrument (regardless of whether its geographic or street-address origin is known). ' much quicker/easier than with an automobile.

Agreed.

Professional tuba players aren't particularly sentimental about their instruments....

A rather general statement that is better evaluated on an individual basis.

[toobagrowl]

Professional tuba players aren't particularly sentimental about their instruments...

Although in your case, you coddle and praise your beloved B&S F tuba on here. I'd swear that thing was your son

[Bobmecum]

Since this post is over 3 years old, I'd like to post an update on Wessex Quality Control.
I recently purchased the Chicago Presence model and have been extremely satisfied with the quality. Jonathan Hodges recently updated thier website with this blog post:

Our Founder, Jonathan Hodgetts, has a message for all customers regarding our continuing journey to exceptional quality instruments, and our exciting plans for the future.



"Thank you for the nice comments on our social media channels, and apologies to those who have previously received an instrument of lesser quality than expected.

I would like to take a moment to fully explain the situation, and the steps Wessex is taking to improve.

When I established Wessex Tubas just 8 years ago it was from the back room of my home, selling a relatively small number of instruments made by 4 factories in China that would then be shipped to a storage unit in the UK before being delivered to customers.

In those early days Wessex was like most other companies, simply ordering from the factory in China and trying to mitigate any quality issues before shipping out to customers; if the finish wasn’t of a certain standard, valve caps won’t thread well, there was a crack in knuckle from valve block, for example, there was a very limited amount that I could do.

I did my best in those early years, of course, and when - after 4 years - the Wessex brand had grown significantly, where I began to receive complete containers, I decided I must take action to improve quality further.

By then I had settled on using the JINBAO FACTORY (the very best of those I had tried), and began visiting the factory every quarter to quality assure every product before accepting the goods.

When I first started the QUALITY ASSURANCE, I could not practically demand that everything be perfect, or we would have nothing to sell! But instead pointed out problems, trying to get them rectified on the production line, and rejecting the worst cases.

With every visit to the factory, I raised the standard of acceptability - but could not raise too quickly or we simply would not have sufficient stock to fulfill orders.

It has been an ongoing challenge over the years; making the decision of whether to keep customers waiting for perfection and risk losing orders, or accepting instruments with very minor defects and hope the customer will still be satisfied with the end product.

Naturally, customer demands vary tremendously - some are happy as long as a instrument plays well and worry in no way about the finish, while others worry about the smallest scratch, or imperfection.

Two years ago I welcomed CHUCK NICKLES to Wessex Tubas as Chief Designer and Technical Advisor and he has been coming with me on every quarterly quality assurance visit ever since.

Chuck has a lot more knowledge of tuba building and repair than I, and has, in effect, been acting as consultant to Jinbao in improving quality; with better soldering, improved tooling and greater use of jigs, etc. So over the last two years quality has continued to improve, probably for all brands coming from the factory, if they have been applying the lessons to other productions.

Knowing that a Wessex team is going to be there for every order quality inspecting and being ever more critical, Jinbao have been working particularly hard to further improve the quality of everything they make under the Wessex brand to the extent that, for example, they spend 6-times longer polishing every Wessex instrument against other brands!

Jinbao had already established a High-Grade department which were making boutique trumpets for some other company to German quality standards, and when Wessex decided to develop the CHICAGO-YORK 6/4 CC TUBA it was decided that this tuba would be manufactured by High-Grade to the best standards possible.

The quality of this Tuba was way beyond anything that had previously come out of China.

Chuck Nickles and I have been working with Mr. Qi, the High-Grade production manager, to raise standards even further; including such things as better valve cap threads, which has always been a difficult area to get entirely right, but with the latest production I think we have at last succeeded!


Particularly over the last year there has been an increasing realisation from both the factory and I that manufacturing Wessex in High-Grade is the way forwards to produce the quality that Wessex and our customers rightly demand.

High-Grade production is completely different from regular Jinbao production. Regular production is by means of a production line where workers carry out one process and pass on to the next, with no one worker taking full ownership for the production of that instrument.

It is a process that makes manufacturing as inexpensive as possible, which is what is demanded by most companies that have their instruments made in China.

However, in High-Grade production, every instrument is built and assembled by a skilled craftsman, or craftswoman, who takes full ownership for the whole process, even loving polishing that instrument when finished.

This is the way Wessex wants our instruments made.

There are, of course, cost implications to this new production process - it costs approximately 30% more to make a tuba in High-Grade but, regardless, I have made the decision with Jinbao Management that during 2019, all but student Wessex production will be transferred to High-Grade.

This has got to be done over a period of time, as the High-Grade team is fully trained and more staff are brought onto the team - meaning we are taking over 3-floors of the factory for just Wessex High-Grade. All new models are being made in High-Grade and, already, manufacturing of Wessex other professional tubas has started to be moved across, so all Wyvern CC, Viverna BBb and Grand BBb are now made by High-Grade.

The difference is tremendous - they look like they have come from a different factory! These are tubas of which I am personally very proud.

But we don’t want to remove economically priced TUBAS FOR STUDENTS AND SCHOOLS from the range, so will continue with some regular production, but these will be branded ‘Overture’, so it will be clear to customers where the tubas have been produced.

We will still try to make the quality of our ‘Overture’ range as good as possible, but the process will not allow them to quite come up to High-Grade standards.

During 2019, the range of each model will be clearly marked on the website.

My best wishes,

Jonathan Hodgetts."

[FarahShazam]

I'm so sorry.

I guffawed at your question. Like "Who wrote Beethoven's 9th symphony"

Hey, I get it. A lot of instruments have parts built in China but are actually assembled elsewhere. Like there are Ford plants in Mexico or Ford makes the equipment and then are assembled in Mexico.

There are also Costco brands that slap their label on REALLY FREAKING AMAZING BOTTLES OF SCOTCH. ( I think the original brand is Macallen or Lagavulin. Don't quote me on that.)

[Three Valves]

If I can swill two healthy portions of that Costco scotch without getting a headache, I’m in!!

[Three Valves]

“Never overlook the obvious”

~Three Valves

[roweenie]

 I don't really care where a horn is built, as long as it plays well.

I strongly urge everyone to research the conditions under which each product is made when making a decision to buy - then, based on ALL the facts, use your own judgment, as far as your personal conditions and morality will allow.

roweenie "who personally thinks sometimes there are things more important in life than money"

[Donn]

I strongly urge everyone to research the conditions under which each product is made when making a decision to buy - then, based on ALL the facts, use your own judgment, as far as your personal conditions and morality will allow.

That's a tough one to pull off, though, isn't it? Even with a conversational grasp of Mandarin Chinese and all the time and money you need, I wouldn't give you very good odds of pulling off that "working conditions" evaluation for 1/10 of the stuff you might buy. How would you get into the factories, and accurately assess what it's like for the workers? Or even find out which factories did what (back on page 1 in 2015, we hear that there could be 70 brass instrument factories in China, and I suppose it's possible that a given instrument model's origin might migrate from one factory to another during its production lifetime.)

For myself, I just have to draw a line somewhere. Even country of origin - the simplest, most available fact - is ambiguous enough ("made" or "assembled"?) and hard enough to research ahead of time, so I doubt I'm ever going to be making finer distinctions.

(By the way, I bought an angle grinder yesterday, and was mighty surprised to find fairly economical Dewalts made in the US! "... with global materials", to be sure, but what can you do. And abrasive disks made in Spain. My advance research had led me to hope for a Makita made in Brazil, but that model turns out to now be made in China; some more expensive models I believe are made in the US, or Germany (Bosch.) I do what I can to avoid buying anything from China. I do not belong to the "can't tell the difference between grey and black" club.)

[roweenie]

I guess I need to correct myself - I should have said circumstances, not conditions (I wasn't referring specifically to "working conditions", although I'm certain that that does play some role overall, to some extent.)

Believe me, I wrestle with this problem every single day - I don't purport to have an answer.....I just try as best as I can to set a personal standard, and live up to it as best as I can.

Nobody ever said that life (and the choices we need to make within it) was supposed to be easy. The world is a deeply flawed and imperfect place - that doesn't mean that we shouldn't at least try to make it a better one, if not for us, but for those who will be here after us. This comes at a cost, usually personal sacrifice, and each individual needs to determine how much sacrifice they can afford to accept.

If I needed to eat ice cream to survive, and I had no choice as to whether or not it was contaminated with poop, I'd have better luck surviving on 35% contamination than 90%. My grandmother used to say "you have to eat a peck of dirt before you die" - I guess I feel I'll live longer if I stretch it out over a longer period of time, rather than eat it all in one serving...

FWIW, I find that we as a society tend to have a selective blindness when it comes to commerce (and the policies of each individual country attached to it), especially if it somehow makes our lives "better".

[bort]

My grandmother used to say "you have to eat a peck of dirt before you die" - I guess I feel I'll live longer if I stretch it out over a longer period of time, rather than eat it all in one serving...

My grandmother would say that, too.

Although, once when I was very young (4 or 5?) I heard hear say this, but my ears heard "you eat a speck of dirt and then you die." I put a dirty hand in my mouth that afternoon, and I was terrified the rest of the day.

My oldest son is coming up on 4 years old... I'd better start watching my mouth!