Why do tuba players have bad time?

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Watchman
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Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Watchman »

A friend of mine, who plays viola, asked me the other day if tuba is a really hard instrument to play. I said it was actually laughably easy compared to some other instruments out there, and then asked why she would think it was difficult.

ASIDE: She's was always a "trooper" back in the day and was willing to listen to my mock auditions when we were in school together. As such, she's a little bit familiar with the tuba rep.

Long story longer, she said our excerpts seem really easy to her. They are just "whole notes, and half notes, and quarter notes" so she just assumed that playing the instrument had to be some great challenge.

That got me thinking, why is it that so many struggle to play this "easy" music? In particular, why is it so easy to eliminate about a hundred people at any given audition on time and rhythm alone?

We're tuba players, darn it! In theory, we're the heartbeat of the band and have been playing "om-pahs" since sixth grade with the goal of keeping "everybody else" on beat. None of us should struggle to play in time.

And yet....
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Three Valves »

Watchman wrote:A friend of mine, who plays viola,...
:roll:
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by michaelrmurrin »

Edit: .

(Edit 2: Although I removed most of my comments from this topic, I will still indicate that I strongly disagree that the tuba is "laughably easy". (Especially the CC or BBb tuba). Even ignoring the vocabulary used, suggesting that the tuba is "laughably easy" seems like a generalized insult to most tuba players, suggesting that most tuba players have some sort of deficiency such that they somehow have trouble playing a "laughably easy" instrument. I just don't understand how anyone who plays the tuba can claim that it's "laughably easy", unless it's someone who has a top orchestra job or something. I just don't get it.)

Now, back to the original post:

To answer your question about why tuba players may have a reputation of having bad time, the answer (according to my understanding) is the following:

The instrument (CC/BBb tuba) is 16-18 feet long, and therefore the air needs to travel 16-18 feet before the sound actually comes out of the bell. Because of this, the player needs to anticipate this and make sure the sound is coming out of the bell on time. If they don't, they will drag the tempo more and more behind, because they are not anticipating the distance the air will have to travel. This happens with many players. (Also, sitting in the back of the orchestra can cause a time delay as well). If all tuba players put an extraordinary emphasis on making sure to stay on top of the time and compensate for the 16-18 foot instrument, tuba players would not have a reputation of having bad time. There was one excerpt we were playing in masterclass, and our teachers said, "Make sure you never drag the tempo when you're playing this excerpt in an orchestra. Well, you can, but if you do, don't say you studied with us." I say this to emphasize that my teachers put an extraordinary emphasis on having good time. I think this is what all players and teachers should do. But not all players do this. Some players do not put enough emphasis on staying on top of the tempo, and as a result, the 16-18 foot length of the instrument causes them to drag the tempo.
Last edited by michaelrmurrin on Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:30 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by The Big Ben »

I can understand why a string player would find tuba music "easy". I had a look at a friend's violin part and thought, "Wow. There's a lot of notes there!" Which there was.

I agree with Michael. The tuba moves slower and it is easy to get a little bit off if full attention is not paid to the beat. I played trumpet for years and years and never seemed to have difficulty keeping in time. I've played the tuba for six or seven years and, if I'm not careful, I can get a half a beat behind. Just enough to be wrong. One of the main purposes of the tuba is to provide a foundation for the orchestra or band. You are providing the fundamental pulse of the group and, if you get off, it is really noticeable.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by roweenie »

That's funny, I thought the topic was "Why do tuba players have A bad time"..... :mrgreen:

(I think that would be much more interesting, anyway)
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Art Hovey »

Why? -because bass players get most of the good jazz gigs these days.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

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[Post removed by user (me) (michaelrmurrin)]
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by roweenie »

Art Hovey wrote:Why? -because bass players get most of the good jazz gigs these days.
I have noticed this trend, too :cry:
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Watchman »

When I said "laughably easy" I meant when compared to OTHER instruments. Tuba isn't even the hardest brass instrument to play. Ask any horn player you know.

Anyway, if the notion were true that "most" tuba players have good time, Die Meistersinger would no longer be asked at auditions. It would be too easy. A "C Major" scale? Half notes, quarter notes, eighth notes? Anybody can do it. Instead, it's the first thing asked. That right there is my "evidence" that the field struggles to play in time. (Let alone in tune, which I'm not even bringing up right now)

To me, this shouldn't be the case since "keeping time" is in the top 5 of any tuba player's job description from the minute they pick up the horn.

My theory is that the way we are teaching people to breathe inadvertently causes them to throw time out the window. In an effort to make every breath a monster breath for optimal sound production, the player loses time.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Watchman »

Three Valves wrote:
Watchman wrote:A friend of mine, who plays viola,...
:roll:
Hey! In the not too distant past, a viola player won a Grammy with an album consisting of solely unaccompanied viola music. When's the last time a tuba player pulled that off?
:wink:
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by timothy42b »

In my limited experience, the worst time is found from organ players.

My theory is that the delay between a key press, air hitting a pipe, and the sound eventually bouncing around a church means a neural connection between time and sound never gets really dialed in.

Could there be a similar problem with tuba? I'm not sure the length of tube makes much difference, air flows so slowly through that it is essentially stationary, but the wave goes at the speed of sound. However the start of the note, and the filling of the room air may be less percussive. I hear trombones drag all the time, I'm not sure what causes that.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by sugawi »

I see this subject of time along with others coming up every so often.
bloke wrote:
time: One of the most disconcerting things - in small or large groups (as our instruments are rarely solo instruments, and are - nearly always - ensemble instruments) is inaccurate time. It's far more disconcerting than are bad pitch (tuning) or faulty resonance (i.e. "bad tone"). This includes both the accuracy of big pulses and the accurate division of pulses. Again, ~I~ am guilty of poor time, and am quite flawed. Unfortunately, the only way to maintain/improve is to work on this constantly and to pay attention to it constantly. I'm listing no methods...We all know the methods of maintenance and improvement.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90081
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by CranstonTuba »

I personally like the look of silver time more. But prefer the easier maintenance of lacquer time.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by michaelrmurrin »

Watchman wrote:When I said "laughably easy" I meant when compared to OTHER instruments. Tuba isn't even the hardest brass instrument to play. Ask any horn player you know.

Anyway, if the notion were true that "most" tuba players have good time, Die Meistersinger would no longer be asked at auditions. It would be too easy. A "C Major" scale? Half notes, quarter notes, eighth notes? Anybody can do it. Instead, it's the first thing asked. That right there is my "evidence" that the field struggles to play in time. (Let alone in tune, which I'm not even bringing up right now)
I still strongly disagree that tuba is "laughably easy" compared to other instruments.

Many people consider the horn to be the hardest instrument in the orchestra. So saying "the tuba isn't as hard as the horn" is a weak argument. Slurred playing and legato playing are much more difficult on the tuba than on any other brass or wind instrument (aside from horn and legato-tongue trombone playing). Playing fast scales (or any fast notes) on the CC tuba in the low range is very difficult because of the extreme amount of air required. The tuba is a pretty difficult instrument. It is not laughably easy compared to other instruments.

Making the claim "the field of tuba players has bad time because Die Meistersinger is asked at auditions" is a bit of a stretch. Even if only 5% of auditioners had bad time on Die Meistersinger, that would still be a useful way to filter people out and would still be worth including on the audition as a way to filter people out. So just because they include Die Meistersinger doesn't mean that the majority of tuba players have bad time.

As indicated in my first response, I do understand that tuba players tend to have a reputation of having bad time. It was just the way you put it, "tuba players have easy excerpts and the instrument is laughably easy compared to other instruments, but they still can't even play those easy excerpts on an easy instrument" really just comes off like you're just talking trash about all tuba players. That was what rubbed me the wrong way and why I'm even still arguing about this. You made it sound like tuba players just really suck and they can't play easy excerpts on an easy instrument.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by iiipopes »

Yeah, I'm late to the party. From my experience, playing in "time," especially with analysis of the inertia of the instrument and the lag between articulation and tone, is a necessary fundamental that does not seem to be as emphasized as playing in "tune" or with other technical aspects. Also, unfortunately, I have had the displeasure of playing beside many tuba players in all varieties of concert bands and related ensembles that play by their ears instead of watching the stick, so by definition they are late even before the first note is played.

At least in a concert band setting, where Ideally you are sitting in the middle back beside or just in front of a bass drummer who also understands playing on the stick instead of to the sound of the rest of the band: unless both of you lock with the director and each other, the band sounds like ****. Period.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Mark »

Watchman wrote:A friend of mine, who plays viola
Why can't viola players play in tune?
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by TubaKen »

When I said "laughably easy" I meant when compared to OTHER instruments.
So, it's hard on it's own, but laughable easy compared to every OTHER instrument? I'd have to disagree. I think you need to distinguish between learning how to play an instrument, and mastering said instrument. Learning to play any instrument to an elementary level is roughly equally easy/difficult. Sure, some are quirkier than others, but overall, the effort needed is about the same. When it comes to mastering an instrument, I think a good argument could be made that the horn is the most difficult. Listen to any professional orchestra live, even the best of the best, and you're going to hear the horns clam. On the flipside, if the tuba was laughably easy, you have high-schoolers going straight into major orchestras all the time (not that that has never happened.)
They (tuba excerpts) are just whole notes, and half notes, and quarter notes
Somewhat true, but that allows the audition committee to zero in on tone, timing, articulation, dynamic range, etc. Possibly to a greater extent than would be payed attention to (except for tone) in a string audition.
The instrument (CC/BBb tuba) is 16-18 feet long, and therefore the air needs to travel 16-18 feet before the sound actually comes out of the bell
Really? It takes sound 20 milliseconds to travel 18 feet. You could argue that the distance to the conductor is more important, but even if you assume he/she is 100 feet away, that is around a tenth of a second. The real source of bad timing / being late is not listening to the rest of the group. IMHO
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Mark »

bloke wrote:I studied (until the geography made it impossible) with someone (someone who I would not label as a "natural", but as a "very hard worker" and "very analytical" who has risen to the top of the profession) who used (uses?) a drum machine to practice (let's face it: boring) excerpts to "burn" the timing of the excerpts into their brain...
I've been thinking about that, moved to another thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92661#p683506
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by iiipopes »

TubaKen wrote:Really? It takes sound 20 milliseconds to travel 18 feet. You could argue that the distance to the conductor is more important, but even if you assume he/she is 100 feet away, that is around a tenth of a second. The real source of bad timing / being late is not listening to the rest of the group. IMHO
Yes, really. Check out this technical video demonstrating the audibility of lag time. By the time 15 milliseconds is reached, lag is definitely noticeable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zZRy-UArXM" target="_blank
A tuba player along with the bass drummer have the greatest responsibility of playing "on the stick" and locking to each other.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by TubaKen »

iiipopes said
Yes, really. Check out this technical video demonstrating the audibility of lag time. By the time 15 milliseconds is reached, lag is definitely noticeable
I didn't say that 20 milliseconds is inaudible (though I question whether a conductor would hear a 20 millisecond-late tuba player, referenced to, say, the concertmaster.)
But i still say it's ridiculous to blame the length of the horn for being late. Being a tenth of a second late (assuming, probably unrealistically, a 100' distance to the podium) would be a much more likely cause for a delay (but still not a good excuse!)
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