The pitch is always somewhere down the players throat?

[Patrase]

Hi

Read an article talking about the demise of the old Boosey and Hawkes and saw this comment by Dennis Wedgewood " Even a basic knowledge of physics & acoustics is enough to know that the pitch/length of a brass instrument doesn’t start at the mouthpiece. Ignoring ‘end correction’ of the bell, and ambient temperature, the Pitch/length is always somewhere down the players throat."

Anyone care to elaborate on this? The down the throat bit in particular

[acemorgan]

I am going to quote myself, and paste an excerpt from a recent post I made on Dave Werden's forum:

Bottom line: it is the vibration of the lip(s) that creates the sound. Any tone-producing vibrating medium follows the same principle: pitch is increased when the vibrator is tightened or shortened, causing a change in the vibration frequency. Every player finds his or her own way of making that happen. This has to happen, or the pitch absolutely will not change. Consider the violin: when one is playing very high, one needs to adjust pressure with the bow, in order to keep the vibration going with that increased string tension. Harder/faster bowing does not change the pitch--it only allows the vibration to occur in the presence of the string's "reluctance to vibrate." As Scotty said to Captain Kirk, "Ye canna' change the laws of physics."

If the point of origin of the tone is the buzz of the lip, the throat is not a resonator.

[Patrase]

Can you elaborate, even if you don't agree with it, the theory behind what Dennis Wedgewood stated?

[Donn]

This thread from our latest missionary from trombone land might run along similar lines - see what you think. I don't see him looking at the throat so much, but of course there's air there too, and for that matter some air to be found all the way down into the lungs.

Steve's Clinic: Solving Low Register Issues

[acemorgan]

Although I have been a tubist for most of my life, I was a vocal performance major in college. I had a variety of voice teachers; some good, some awful.

The teacher I credit with really teaching me how to sing had a rather strange approach that involved visualizing imaginary activities that had no actual physiological reality. Yet, these visualizations did produce real physical vocal processes that might have been difficult to effect without these imaginary activities. Not everyone felt the same way about this teacher's methods. I was one of those for whom this method worked. It didn't always work for others.

My point is that sometimes suggestions which are blatantly unscientific and even illogical can trigger something valuable in the individual performer. But that does not mean that the suggestion actually conforms to the laws of physics. Nor should it be considered a one-size-fits-all solution.

Visualizing the tone coming from the player's throat might produce some useful physical effect in the player--perhaps more open breathing, better posture, more relaxed upper torso--all of which could help someone over a hump. And based on the individual, might work or might not.

[acemorgan]

The harder the better, because it forces the notes out faster.

[Doug Elliott]

On the bell end, the acoustical length of the instrument clearly doesn't stop at the bell. The size of the room and distance from the bell to a hard surface has an effect on the response and sound. Maybe not the actual pitch.


On the mouthpiece end, although a brass instrument primarily functions as a closed-end tube, it"s not totally closed. The size and shape of the mouth cavity and throat clearly has an effect on the response and sound. Maybe not the actual pitch.

I think the resonance length (maybe not pitch) does extend behind the lips, or at least what's behind the lips has a major effect on the resonance. That's largely why we all sound like ourselves.

[Yane]

David Porter gave a presentation at last year’s MARTEC that might seems in line with Ace’s experience, comparing vocal and brass pedagogy. https://www.windsongpress.com/jacobs/wr ... _11388.pdf" target="_blank
Then again, there’s always this approach:
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/233fe0d1-c ... 3c46ec838f" target="_blank

[Donn]

I think the resonance length (maybe not pitch) does extend behind the lips, or at least what's behind the lips has a major effect on the resonance.

Maybe resonance "cavity" or something like that would sound less like we're talking about the tone wavelength.

Has anyone ever tried to play tuba backwards, with a buzz on the in breath? Not sure it could be done, but if there's acoustic resonance happening inside your mouth in normal playing, then there should also be outside, when playing backwards, and voilá, the tuba will play.

[Doug Elliott]

I think Stewart Dempster demonstrated that once on trombone. He was able to buzz while inhaling. I can't do that.

[timothy42b]

Why would sound go only forward from the lips?

Sure air is moving, but very slowly. Sound waves go orders of magnitude faster.

The lips originate a buzz that must go forward and back. At some point it must reflect. The reflection must arrive at the lips. It would seem reasonable that has an effect on the lips buzzing, just as the reflection from the bell does. I don't know how you would study what the magnitude of that force is, but it must exist. IMO.

[Donn]

The lips originate a buzz that must go forward and back. At some point it must reflect.

Reflect from the alveoli in the lungs, you think? They're small, less than 1/2 a mm, so probably not so much going on acoustically inside them. Maybe the larger branches on the way? Of course along with being kind of spongy, the whole mess is pretty soft.

[peterbas]

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[peterbas]

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[tbonesullivan]

I definitely can feel resonance inside my mouth and throat at some times. Sometimes it even feels like the note "starts" there before I hear it come out the bell.

[Patrase]

In the article Mr Wedgewood (trumpet maker) was arguing that the tuning slides on The Besson Eb were too short, because players have natural variances in pitch and the variance starts in the throat.

If the pitch starts at the lips why do some players play flat or sharp on an instrument?

[peterbas]

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[iiipopes]

Hmmm. Interesting thread. Reminds me of a common pointer that when a brass player is playing a thin, sharp tone, being told to open his throat and relax the jaw to get a bigger tone and get the pitch down. Now, if that is as a result of better air support, or the topic of this thread that the tone starts in the throat, I don't know. Good advice, nonetheless.

[hbcrandy]

As players, what is the point of this discussion? Pitch is in your ears. Listen, play in tune and quit worrying about the minutia. Though I am not an Arnold Jacobs student, I admire his philosophies and teaching methods. I am told that he had a phrase for what I am trying to get across here, paralysis by analysis. As players of our instruments, all we have to know is what we do to successfully perform. The rest is unnecessary and will stifle your artistry.

[Mark E. Chachich]

I agree with Randy!

Mark