The Best

[toobagrowl]

I can see where you are coming from with this thread. Personally, most Miraphone tubas don't do anything for me. But I can admit they are good, well-made tubas. Same thing for Willson tubas.
On your list, Meinl-Weston and B&S are my overall favorites. And like em or not, many ppl would argue Yamaha to be there, at least for consistency and quality workmanship.

Of the vintage horns, I'd argue Elkhart-era Conn and Cleveland-era King. Consistency, reliability, quality workmanship and playability

[GC]

It's been nearly 50 years, admittedly, but the reason I ended up with a different brand when I bought a horn in college was that the 3 Miraphones that my college owned were all relatively new, none of them played well, and they all had different problems. I will admit, though, that every Miraphone I've played over the past decade or so but one has been an excellent instrument, and I might have bought one recently had the price not been so high.

[bort]

I think the problem with statements like this is that the crappy (or marginal) tubas are so easy to point out.

Beyond that, things that are well-made are just well-made, and yes, it just depends on what you like.

It's like... I know a really great sushi restaurant... But if you think sushi is gross, we just aren't going to have much to talk about.

[Bnich93]

Gonna have to agree with this list, particularly the build quality of Miraphones. That being said I sold my Mirafone 181 to buy an EEb tuba from a company that some might think of as dodgey. I guess that comes into the "prefer" vs "is better than" territory, since I decided that having an easy and delicate low register is more important to me than my fantasies of becoming a world renowned soloist. However, my JP is one heck of a player, and my only issue is that the silver plate is not on par with my other tuba. Honestly who gives a about the way the horn looks though, and I would honestly be livid if the finish was just as good as my $XX,XXX Hirsbrunner.

[bort]

Or with the car analogy... Which German car is the best (ignore the fact that many are built not in Germany... Although many (including mine) was...)

I've owned most of the brands of tubas built in Germany. All great quality. All a little different. Rudy and Willson (Swiss) were maybe the "best" built. But what complaints have I ever had about B&S?

It's all a silly question. Fun to answer and think about, but silly.

Also, quite ironic that the Amati is your favorite! They are inconsistent, but the good ones are great!

[groth]

I
Of the vintage horns, I'd argue Elkhart-era Conn and Cleveland-era King. Consistency, reliability, quality workmanship and playability

I'd still throw in the Eastlake Kings until Conn/Selmer came in are still unbelievable as well. I'd take one over a Miraphone, but Miraphone being a semi-close second.

[oleirgens]

I took some flack on another site when I made the comment that nothing can beat a vintage Mirafone. My thoughts are this.....
There are a select few companies, of which Miraphone is one, that offer superior consistency, superior workmanship and superior playability. Player may PREFER another brand, but that doesn't make it a better horn. Those companies, in my opinion, (in no particular order) include:

Miraphone
Hirsbrunner
Meinl Weston
Rudy Meinl
Alexander
Adams
Willson
B&S

Change my mind!

To quote The Dude: "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man."

[Bill Troiano]

Can we include the Yamaha pro tubas on this list? I’m not talking about their student or intermediate line. Not that I have a lot of experience playing pro Yamaha tubas. I have played the Yamayork, 621 F, 822 F and I own a 621 CC. I thought those horns were exceptional in their quality and workmanship. With my 621 CC, the valve caps screw on without any fuss whatsoever. I spin them right on and I can oil all 4 valves in under a minute.

[oleirgens]

To quote The Dude: "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man."

So, add to the list. Show me horns that are BETTER than these. Someone added that some Conns and Kings belonged in that list - what do you have in mind that should go on that list or is indeed better than those listed?

I do not have your broad experience, obviously, but I would say that Besson make some damned good horns, along with Yamaha. Several of the tuba pros I know in my hometown play one of these brands.

I think the whole idea of making such a list is quite useless, anyway, because you need some criteria other than your own subjective opinion, which is, to be honest, not very interesting. Do your base your criteria on mechanical quality, intonation, ease of play, sound, or what?

[Bill Troiano]

I think I brought up Yamaha first and that was based on Terry’s criteria in the original post, being - superior consistency, superior workmanship, and superior playability.

[oleirgens]

Do your base your criteria on mechanical quality, intonation, ease of play, sound, or what?

I think in the original post, I said superior consistency, superior workmanship, and superior playability. If you feel there are other brands that give those, let's add them to the list. Are they BETTER than the ones I listed? If so, tell us what makes them better horns. You already said Besson and Yamaha were are good, I think.

I did, and I would dare to add the brand of my own horn on the list: John Packer. Well built, very playable and quite consistent.

[SousaWarrior9]

"H.N. WHITE King" deserves to be on the list.
"ELKHART Conn SMALLER tubas" deserve to be on the list
...even the ancient "raw nickel silver pistons" instruments, as that was the leading/prominent technology of the day.
"Martin 6/4 BB-flat" also deserve to be found on the list.
In my view, no "monster E-flat" nor (rare) "C" instruments from these factories deserve to find their way to Terry's list.
( Please consider- re: my opinions - what is #1 on my personal checklist re: playing characteristics of tubas.)

Second the motion for the inclusion of (Elkhart) Conns, (H.N. White) Kings, and Martins. Some of my favorite horns I've ever played are the big King rotary BBb horns as well as the 6/4 Martins.

I also think York's smaller tubas deserve credit. So many are obsessed with the 6/4 Yorks, that I think the smaller 4/4 offerings like the 33 get over overlooked.

And although I really do like the sound and feel of the monster Eb tubas from these manufacturers, I do have to agree that the intonation issues does prevent them from being on the list.

For me personally, "the best" means as close to point-and-shoot intonation as possible, because I don't have a well trained enough ear to react to most tuning issues on the fly. I like the feel of pistons over rotors generally, and prefer the more diffused sound of a dramatically conical bugle as opposed to a more stovepipe type taper.

I guess this criteria explains why I like Martin 6/4 tubas and King 4/4 tubas so much.

[Donn]

My tuba is not on this list. Guess I'll have to be replacing it.

[SousaWarrior9]

My tuba is not on this list. Guess I'll have to be replacing it.

As an ex post facto artiste, I believe I still may be able to hook you up...

Ya know, I've been trying to work out a similar artiste gig for myself with the folks at Martin, but they're not returning my calls.

[Donn]

The problem is, I spent kind of a lot of money on it, and now that it turns out to be not The Best, it sure isn't going to sell for much. And you'd never know, it seemed pretty nice. I guess I just should have checked first, to avoid this embarrassing situation.

[groth]

Can we include the Yamaha pro tubas on this list?

I added Yamaha, John Packer, Vintage Conns and Kings.....see original post. Interesting that no one has claimed a brand as BETTER yet. Honestly, I have not even touched one of the pro Yamaha horns. I own a couple 103s, and played an upright in high school...those are ok horns, and very functional, but not in the same ballpark as the others I listed. Notice that the horn I play most, my Amati, is not on my own list.

"Vintage King" is very vague Terry. Can we assume, that if it's a detachable bell 2341 it's on that list? (Pre-2000 Conn/Selmer)?

[Donn]

I'd be surprised if the modern 2341 is generally acknowledged to be inferior in any way. They seem to be on the contrary significantly more desirable.

Vintage Conns are on the other hand would seem to be of somewhat limited appeal, because if they're really big (the only ones anyone cares about), they'll play flat on F below the staff. Meanwhile the big Martin you suggested, which is without flaw, didn't make it to the list.

I guess Gronitz's day has passed, relative to a decade or two ago when everyone wanted a PCK, but as it seems like the list started off as an inventory of German makes I would have kind of expected to see them there.

[oleirgens]

Can we include the Yamaha pro tubas on this list?

I added Yamaha, John Packer, Vintage Conns and Kings.....see original post. Interesting that no one has claimed a brand as BETTER yet. Honestly, I have not even touched one of the pro Yamaha horns. I own a couple 103s, and played an upright in high school...those are ok horns, and very functional, but not in the same ballpark as the others I listed. Notice that the horn I play most, my Amati, is not on my own list.

This might be a futile discussion. I have never played a Miraphone, so I would not possibly know if my JP or the Yamaha Pro I borrowed some months last year are better than any instrument on your list which I have not played. In terms of intonation and build quality, I would say that the four Yamahas I have played on (three tubas and one baritone), along with my current JP, are the best on my list.

I think discussions about instrument brands and models are quite useful, but my preferences might not be the same as yours. Intonation can be a highly personal issue, and one persons "lemon" might be another player's favorite. Build quality is maybe more of an objective issue, and I greatly appreciate the professionals' advice in this regard (his Blokeness, for instance).

At the end of the day, for us amateurs with only one (or maybe two) horns, the current instrument is almost always the best. I respect your views, and find them useful also, to a certain extent, but the idea of making a list and proclaiming which is best, is a somewhat meaningless exercise for me.

[groth]

"Vintage King" is very vague Terry. Can we assume, that if it's a detachable bell 2341 it's on that list? (Pre-2000 Conn/Selmer)?

I just added what someone else suggested. I intentionally left all American and Asian horns off my list.

I think you should add the UMI (Pre-2001) detachable bell King Tubas on there. Mine is pretty damn well built (1998 vintage). Craftsmanship went way down post 2001.

[groth]

but the idea of making a list and proclaiming which is best, is a somewhat meaningless exercise for me.

I never said which is best. I just said that nothing I knew of was BETTER. They are all good - likely fairly equally good. "Can't beat it" is not the same as "this is the best". Perhaps it loses something in translation.

The title of the thread is "The BEST"...so I think that's what everyone thought you were implying there. There's a whole lot of "better" or "equal" to the Miraphone brand.