The Best

[Bill Troiano]

Can we include the Yamaha pro tubas on this list? I’m not talking about their student or intermediate line. Not that I have a lot of experience playing pro Yamaha tubas. I have played the Yamayork, 621 F, 822 F and I own a 621 CC. I thought those horns were exceptional in their quality and workmanship. With my 621 CC, the valve caps screw on without any fuss whatsoever. I spin them right on and I can oil all 4 valves in under a minute.

[oleirgens]

To quote The Dude: "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man."

So, add to the list. Show me horns that are BETTER than these. Someone added that some Conns and Kings belonged in that list - what do you have in mind that should go on that list or is indeed better than those listed?

I do not have your broad experience, obviously, but I would say that Besson make some damned good horns, along with Yamaha. Several of the tuba pros I know in my hometown play one of these brands.

I think the whole idea of making such a list is quite useless, anyway, because you need some criteria other than your own subjective opinion, which is, to be honest, not very interesting. Do your base your criteria on mechanical quality, intonation, ease of play, sound, or what?

[Bill Troiano]

I think I brought up Yamaha first and that was based on Terry’s criteria in the original post, being - superior consistency, superior workmanship, and superior playability.

[oleirgens]

Do your base your criteria on mechanical quality, intonation, ease of play, sound, or what?

I think in the original post, I said superior consistency, superior workmanship, and superior playability. If you feel there are other brands that give those, let's add them to the list. Are they BETTER than the ones I listed? If so, tell us what makes them better horns. You already said Besson and Yamaha were are good, I think.

I did, and I would dare to add the brand of my own horn on the list: John Packer. Well built, very playable and quite consistent.

[SousaWarrior9]

"H.N. WHITE King" deserves to be on the list.
"ELKHART Conn SMALLER tubas" deserve to be on the list
...even the ancient "raw nickel silver pistons" instruments, as that was the leading/prominent technology of the day.
"Martin 6/4 BB-flat" also deserve to be found on the list.
In my view, no "monster E-flat" nor (rare) "C" instruments from these factories deserve to find their way to Terry's list.
( Please consider- re: my opinions - what is #1 on my personal checklist re: playing characteristics of tubas.)

Second the motion for the inclusion of (Elkhart) Conns, (H.N. White) Kings, and Martins. Some of my favorite horns I've ever played are the big King rotary BBb horns as well as the 6/4 Martins.

I also think York's smaller tubas deserve credit. So many are obsessed with the 6/4 Yorks, that I think the smaller 4/4 offerings like the 33 get over overlooked.

And although I really do like the sound and feel of the monster Eb tubas from these manufacturers, I do have to agree that the intonation issues does prevent them from being on the list.

For me personally, "the best" means as close to point-and-shoot intonation as possible, because I don't have a well trained enough ear to react to most tuning issues on the fly. I like the feel of pistons over rotors generally, and prefer the more diffused sound of a dramatically conical bugle as opposed to a more stovepipe type taper.

I guess this criteria explains why I like Martin 6/4 tubas and King 4/4 tubas so much.

[Donn]

My tuba is not on this list. Guess I'll have to be replacing it.

[SousaWarrior9]

My tuba is not on this list. Guess I'll have to be replacing it.

As an ex post facto artiste, I believe I still may be able to hook you up...

Ya know, I've been trying to work out a similar artiste gig for myself with the folks at Martin, but they're not returning my calls.

[Donn]

The problem is, I spent kind of a lot of money on it, and now that it turns out to be not The Best, it sure isn't going to sell for much. And you'd never know, it seemed pretty nice. I guess I just should have checked first, to avoid this embarrassing situation.

[groth]

Can we include the Yamaha pro tubas on this list?

I added Yamaha, John Packer, Vintage Conns and Kings.....see original post. Interesting that no one has claimed a brand as BETTER yet. Honestly, I have not even touched one of the pro Yamaha horns. I own a couple 103s, and played an upright in high school...those are ok horns, and very functional, but not in the same ballpark as the others I listed. Notice that the horn I play most, my Amati, is not on my own list.

"Vintage King" is very vague Terry. Can we assume, that if it's a detachable bell 2341 it's on that list? (Pre-2000 Conn/Selmer)?

[Donn]

I'd be surprised if the modern 2341 is generally acknowledged to be inferior in any way. They seem to be on the contrary significantly more desirable.

Vintage Conns are on the other hand would seem to be of somewhat limited appeal, because if they're really big (the only ones anyone cares about), they'll play flat on F below the staff. Meanwhile the big Martin you suggested, which is without flaw, didn't make it to the list.

I guess Gronitz's day has passed, relative to a decade or two ago when everyone wanted a PCK, but as it seems like the list started off as an inventory of German makes I would have kind of expected to see them there.

[oleirgens]

Can we include the Yamaha pro tubas on this list?

I added Yamaha, John Packer, Vintage Conns and Kings.....see original post. Interesting that no one has claimed a brand as BETTER yet. Honestly, I have not even touched one of the pro Yamaha horns. I own a couple 103s, and played an upright in high school...those are ok horns, and very functional, but not in the same ballpark as the others I listed. Notice that the horn I play most, my Amati, is not on my own list.

This might be a futile discussion. I have never played a Miraphone, so I would not possibly know if my JP or the Yamaha Pro I borrowed some months last year are better than any instrument on your list which I have not played. In terms of intonation and build quality, I would say that the four Yamahas I have played on (three tubas and one baritone), along with my current JP, are the best on my list.

I think discussions about instrument brands and models are quite useful, but my preferences might not be the same as yours. Intonation can be a highly personal issue, and one persons "lemon" might be another player's favorite. Build quality is maybe more of an objective issue, and I greatly appreciate the professionals' advice in this regard (his Blokeness, for instance).

At the end of the day, for us amateurs with only one (or maybe two) horns, the current instrument is almost always the best. I respect your views, and find them useful also, to a certain extent, but the idea of making a list and proclaiming which is best, is a somewhat meaningless exercise for me.

[groth]

"Vintage King" is very vague Terry. Can we assume, that if it's a detachable bell 2341 it's on that list? (Pre-2000 Conn/Selmer)?

I just added what someone else suggested. I intentionally left all American and Asian horns off my list.

I think you should add the UMI (Pre-2001) detachable bell King Tubas on there. Mine is pretty damn well built (1998 vintage). Craftsmanship went way down post 2001.

[groth]

but the idea of making a list and proclaiming which is best, is a somewhat meaningless exercise for me.

I never said which is best. I just said that nothing I knew of was BETTER. They are all good - likely fairly equally good. "Can't beat it" is not the same as "this is the best". Perhaps it loses something in translation.

The title of the thread is "The BEST"...so I think that's what everyone thought you were implying there. There's a whole lot of "better" or "equal" to the Miraphone brand.

[groth]

There's a whole lot of "better" or "equal" to the Miraphone brand.

Better? Really now? Equally as good, as I said, I believe. Better I find really hard to believe. Better craftsmanship? Better what?

Better yes, as in more solid construction. Willson, Hirsbrunner..ever played one or inspected one up close?

[groth]

The question was for Terry. So then, there's nothing better than Miraphone. It's settled, the expert has spoken.

[groth]

Better yes, as in more solid construction. Willson, Hirsbrunner..ever played one or inspected one up close?

Sure have - good horns. Not my cup of tea - heavy, thick, not vibrant. I have an extremely high opinion of their euphoniums, but not as much for the tubas. I don't know of any horn PERFECTLY in tune, but they usually follow about the same pattern at least, the ones I played were odd - but maybe they all had the same tendencies, I can't speak to that. Kinda the Helga or Brubhilda of good tubas. Some love em, for sure. I don't see BETTER in either, sorry.

Still waiting for you just to say it ...you know...that Miraphone is the Best made horn and some others are maybe AS GOOD, but nothing is better than a Miraphone. I think we've named off all the most expensive and amazing playing tubas and still nothing has changed your mind.

[toobagrowl]

Actually, Bill T and SousaWarrior, I was the first to mention Yamaha as well as Elkhart-era Conn and Cleveland-era (H.N. White) King. But that's ok :

And like em or not, many ppl would argue Yamaha to be there, at least for consistency and quality workmanship.

Of the vintage horns, I'd argue Elkhart-era Conn and Cleveland-era King. Consistency, reliability, quality workmanship and playability

@groth: Yes, I'd also take a 1990's UMI-era King over a current Conn-Selmer King. But those older H.N. White horns were something special (especially the BBb sousas), and were more handmade back then and used nicer bracing.

Some of my favorite makers are not on the list and that's ok. Call me crazy, but I'd still take a good old Cerveny 681 BBb over a Miraphone 186 BBb. Even though the Mira 186 is built better, I still prefer the sonic/response qualities of the Cerv 681. Even the little Amati ABB 321 is a fun little 4-valve "7/8" BBb if in good working order
Cerveny/Amati made and still make some nice tubas; some of them play really well. But the consistency and build quality is not on-par with the top brands. I also really like some of the old Holtons, and own several. But, like Cerveny, many would not put on the list for the above-mentioned reasons.

[bort]

Also, which NFL QB is the best of all time.

[groth]

Actually, Bill T and SousaWarrior, I was the first to mention Yamaha as well as Elkhart-era Conn and Cleveland-era (H.N. White) King. But that's ok :

And like em or not, many ppl would argue Yamaha to be there, at least for consistency and quality workmanship.

Of the vintage horns, I'd argue Elkhart-era Conn and Cleveland-era King. Consistency, reliability, quality workmanship and playability

@groth: Yes, I'd also take a 1990's UMI-era King over a current Conn-Selmer King. But those older H.N. White horns were something special (especially the BBb sousas), and were more handmade back then and used nicer bracing.

Some of my favorite makers are not on the list and that's ok. Call me crazy, but I'd still take a good old Cerveny 681 BBb over a Miraphone 186 BBb. Even though the Mira 186 is built better, I still prefer the sonic/response qualities of the Cerv 681. Even the little Amati ABB 321 is a fun little 4-valve "7/8" BBb if in good working order
Cerveny/Amati made and still make some nice tubas; some of them play really well. But the consistency and build quality is not on-par with the top brands. I also really like some of the old Holtons, and own several. But, like Cerveny, many would not put on the list for the above-mentioned reasons.

Yeah the Sousas were pretty solid.