My tuba patch was the most sincere

[basslizard]

My front porch sprouted brass instruments while I was out walking the dog. In much the same way as one sneaks zucchini onto an unsuspecting neighbor's porch, someone unloaded his father's brass and ran away. I was hoping my tuba patch was the most sincere so the Great Tuba would visit and spread brass musical joy...

In truth, I know who left them. His father bought all the instruments from a dying band program in the 1950's and these horns have been sitting in a barn ever since. I don't think all four of them will be salvageable as anything other than art pieces. The big tuba itself might be, as it's in remarkable shape. If the serial number lists I found were accurate, it's a 1916-1917 Buescher. I'm fairly certain the serial number is 30288 and not 80288. Even if I'm wrong, it's still 1922 at the latest. One valve stem seems to be broken. I don't know much about Buescher, but this is probably an Eb?

My big question is how to clean them up? They may have nests of critters in them. The weather is varying from cold to way past nippy, so I have to bundle up to sit outside and work on them. I cleaned a bit off the bells to look for labels on them. In addition to the Buescher, there's an Beaufort American (Chicago), a Wurlizer, and an American Standard (Cleveland Musical Instruments) I could be wrong on the order. They all have all of their parts. The littlest has a cracked bell at the top, and the Beaufort's lead pipe renders it unplayable no matter how clean, as well other serious dents. They vary in age, from 1917 to the 1930's. Hard to be sure yet.

[basslizard]

Here are some pictures of the Buescher.

[basslizard]

Scrollwork on the bell.

[Three Valves]

Not a sign of hypocrisy!!

[Donn]

It sure does look like a nice big Eb. Could be a fun player, if valves are OK inside and the pitch is close to A=440hz.

[basslizard]

I'm going to try to do it myself. I am open to suggestions as I am a complete amateur. I live in a brass repair desert.* I also live 80 miles from Rapid City, the closest 'city' with more than just basic services. I also don't plan on taking any serious risks.

To start, I'm going to try to pull out all the tuning slides, the valves, etc and give it a good old fashioned soapy bath, just like I would any other brass horn. I'm comfortable with this part. One of the valves is funky, but until I pull it apart, I don't know if it's a broken valve stem, bent, or just needs a new button, button felts, springs, etc. Hopefully that's all it needs.

I have:
A tuba cleaning snake
Dawn dish soap
Purple Power degreaser -Is this even safe on a tuba? I read on the internets that I should use this. I've got a few reservations... I have it because I was cleaning some tools and random auto parts.
WD-40 - if it's stuck to where I need this, should I try? Is this a good way to loosen a tuning slide? Do I get some Liquid Wrench penetrating oil?
Brass & Copper polish

I can get or have access to:
vinegar and/or muriatic acid
penetrating oil (hardware store carries Blaster PB)
Basic household tools

* I was given some amazing contacts for my current tuba that I was unable to take advantage of. Semi-locally,there are a couple of guys who are ok, but will actually turn down work if they don't think it's worth what they'll charge me for it. I had to beg to get them to free up the tuning slides on a 1952 Conn trumpet that was used locally in the 50's in a dance band; What I asked for was a chemical bath, pull the tuning slides, new springs in one of the valves, and re-cork the mute. they called me up, told me it was ready, and they hadn't done anything because they'd have to charge me $200, and it that old trumpet wasn't worth it, and didn't I want to buy a trumpet from them? Sheesh. It's a beautiful vintage horn. In the end I did get them to free up the tuning slides. Like the tubas, the trumpet was given to me because my youngest wanted to learn to play it. I'm a sucker when my kids ask for a musical instrument. It's like asking for a book to read.

[Donn]

Some people have very superficial ideas about value.

You should be able to find a lot to read here about loosening tuning slides. Repair technicians get good at it. As probably the very last resort, after all the lubrication and mechanical tricks have failed, there's a way that involves dismantling the slide with a propane torch. If you're as unskilled as I am with instrument soldering, the result will be pretty ugly.

[tbonesullivan]

I would go with vinegar over muriatic, which is more properly called Hydrochloric Acid. It's a very potent acid, and will eat right through brass honestly.

You can however also make use of phosphoric acid, which i believe only takes off the oxide, and then will even leave a thin phosphate coating. It's found in virtually every soft drink/soda. I had a bunch of rusty steel files I wanted to clean off, and I just put them in a tube with some Coke Zero, and in a day, they were all nice and gray again.

[basslizard]

Thank you for the tips. If I can’t pull a slide with what I have, I will pay someone who knows better. I will leave the torches to the pros. And may try the Coke Zero on one of the lesser horns that are not necessarily going to be playable.

[basslizard]

I took pictures of each horn, detailing the damage and serial numbers. Sadly, the one that breaks my heart a bit is the dent/perforation in the bell of the Beuscher that I hadn’t seen before. I will post pictures tonight after I sleep. I’m late heading to bed this morning. I have to resize them since I took them with my iPhone.

[basslizard]

I'll clean it up, but is it worth finding someone to fix the bell? I've read these early Beuscher E-flat tubas are.... finicky... with tuning. There's an entire thread about then not being tuned to A-440. I think I'll have to replace a valve stem, maybe the entire piston, for the 3rd valve.

[basslizard]

The keel is pretty

[basslizard]

I have too many pictures.

Out of these four horns, the one in the best shape is the American Standard/Cleveland Musical Instrument Company Baritone horn, B-Flat low pitch, circa 1928-1930 brass with satin finish silver plating? (looks very brassy to me) It probably has the same Perinet piston valves that the one in the collection of the National Music Museum does; they're nearly identical except for the claim that theirs has 'High Grade' on it and I don't see that the bell of this one has a floral motif at all. The keel is a little flattened, there are a few dents, and it's missing one brace and another has sprung loose.

[Donn]

I'll clean it up, but is it worth finding someone to fix the bell? I've read these early Beuscher E-flat tubas are.... finicky... with tuning. There's an entire thread about then not being tuned to A-440. I think I'll have to replace a valve stem, maybe the entire piston, for the 3rd valve.

The outcome is going to be a lot easier to predict after you checked out the pistons, and if they're OK, after you've checked pitch. Pitch will be impacted by leaks and other defects, but unless there's something obvious you can spot on your own, it can be expensive to track that down, so maybe it is what it is. (Align the valves though - you can do that yourself.)

Then you'll know if it's work fixing. It doesn't look all that bad to me, but the repair experts here may be willing to lend their insight on that. And temporary fix options, if any, that won't make it harder to work on (I'd say solder a patch on the crack, but you've forsworn the use of a torch. I'd say do not put any epoxy or other resin in it.) It may not make that much difference anyway.

[basslizard]

C29F2C70-45CF-4E9E-B479-396DA940CBAB.jpeg

The American Standard has a history that I can now trace part of. I have a picture of it being played, in a trio. The tenor sax player still plays her sax, and is very good to this day. The French horn player is her sister and the quarter-tuba as they called it, is their dad, Bud.

I soaked, snaked, pulled out all slides (pulling the main tuning slide involved a Methodist minister, two large men and a meat hook suspended from the rafters of a taxidermy shop) I used synthetic valve oil to loosen the slides and only the one gave me trouble. I blew out things best left with the vague description of dear sweet baby Jesus if that’s what’s in a smaller horn, what’s in the rest of them? Am I brave enough to find out?

Now I a, debating on how much polishing to give the satin finished silver. The patina it kind of neat.

[basslizard]

Cleaning, and the trio

I have been playing the mini-tuba. The low b-flat is waaaay off.otherwise, the valves are great, great compression, very playable euphonium. Still has a hint of something earthy when I play it.

Hagerty silver polish?

Which one to clean next?

[Donn]

I had an otherwise nice baritone with a super flat low Bb (and A.) I never solved it, but I heard from subsequent owner that it turned out to indeed be a leak that we just couldn't find.

Band charts from the late 19th century put an Eb bass at the bottom, and a Bb bass often playing a similar part above it, with the 3rd trombone. That Bb bass was just a fat baritone, so I'm always looking at old baritones and wondering if their owners thought of them as "Bb bass." A couple catalogues from much earlier, showing this lineup - Boston Musical Instrument Manufactory, 1869, and (big) C. Bruno & Son, ca. 1890.

[basslizard]

I had an otherwise nice baritone with a super flat low Bb (and A.) I never solved it, but I heard from subsequent owner that it turned out to indeed be a leak that we just couldn't find.

I am taking this into account - I didn't replace the cork on the spit valve on the tuning slide, so it very well could have a leak, not to mention the extreme force that was needed to pull that particular tuning slide. I'll start with replacing that cork since it's the easiest thing. I forgot to get new felts while I was at the music store buying a mouthpiece for it; the old ones are kind of gross. I brought it in with me to do exactly that, but got side tracked by my spousal unit looking at a very fancy trap set, until he saw the $2600 price tag. I'd talked him into a new set for our youngest, but he's now re-thinking that idea. I told him I was going to look at used ones first, and that he did manage to find the most expensive set in the store. The brass repair guy was there - was amazed at the valve action, advised me to buy a few cans of Hagerty's spray-on silver polish.

Next time I'm in town, I'll see about a new cork for the valve and those felts. Maybe I'll have another horn cleaned up that will only need minor stuff as well.

[basslizard]

It sure does look like a nice big Eb. Could be a fun player, if valves are OK inside and the pitch is close to A=440hz.

valve 3 stem.jpg

Not sure how easy adding a valve stem to the 3rd piston will be. Trying to decide if this is the next clean-up project, or if I go for the Beaufort euphonium. I'm saving the tiny Wurlitzer for last since it's truly beyond my skill to make playable. It's probably doomed being pretty wall art.

[Donn]

Not sure how easy adding a valve stem to the 3rd piston will be.

In principle, should be easy for anyone with some machinist skills, or if the tuba doesn't look to be worth it, there might be a way to jury rig something out of hardware store materials. The photo brings up another point, though, that maybe you've thought about, as the surviving stems don't appear to be of equal height, or have the same caps. You may be adding a valve stem to the 2nd and 3rd pistons, or 1st and 3rd if the 2nd is actually the original - so it would be a good idea to find out which valve stem length actually matches the pistons.

The object is to get the piston travel to match the ports. My crude approach to this is to remove the piston and measure distances between port and valve cap, with the valve cap pressed against the piston and then pressed against the cap, and transfer each those measurements to the distance between the hole in the valve case and the top of the valve. The length of the valve stem is obviously somewhat important (so it's weird that the two valve stems are of such different length), but as long as the stem is long enough, the fine adjustment will be done with felts and cork. (So the valve cap or stem needs to be unscrewable - I'd start with the cap if they're stuck.) This alignment can substantially improve bad notes. That's a ways off with the Eb tuba, but it might be something to look at with the baritone.