Flattened or arched fingers?

[iattp]

Yes, I tried the search option to see if I can find anything on this topic, but all I got was the post about the Gagney Eb tuba.

I'm curious about this flat/arched finger position stuff. I am seeing more flat fingers now, and I was taught to keep them arched. Is it dependent on the valves (rotary vs piston) or is it preference? Is there a benefit for one over the other?

I think I'm kind arched, for the most part. Also, my ring finger pulls back when I'm not using it instead of resting on the valves. That also seems odd to me. It doesn't really affect my playing, so I'm not stressing about it.

Anyhoo, just curious about what y'all think regarding flat vs arched finger positions.

If this has been discussed before, please post the link. The search option works sorta...sometimes I get better results typing in what I'm looking for on google then site: forums.chisham.com but this was a little wonky, and despite my thirst for data and willingness to plow through lots to find it, when I have the chance to ask directly, I would just prefer that.

Alles Gute aus Mazedonien!

[pjv]

Back in my student years of friend of mine needed a guinea pig for beginners violin lessons.
Finger position: arched.

[Peach]

One can find fabulous players using all sorts of finger positioning. Those players are great not because of their positions, sometimes in spite of them. So it's clear all manner of ways CAN work.
That said, and all else being equal surely the best way is to have the fingers placed as close to their natural position as possible?
Very straight or arched fingers have a degree of tension which can't be optimal.
To that end I always have students "flop" their hands back and forth at the side of the body, leaving fingers limp - then take a look at the finger position. In every case I've seen, fingers sit without tension with a slight curve. That's what I try to achieve on the horn.
Weirdly, the index finger usually points slightly higher than the other fingers.
Why? I don't know.

[GC]

Looking at videos of symphony orchestra trumpet players, you see both styles, often both within the same section. To me the only real distinction is that they wear valves in differently because of different amounts of sideways force, and changing styles in the middle of playing may give you a case of sticky valves.

[paulver]

On piano.... curved fingers allow for more accuracy when reaching passed other keys, without bumping them on the way to the correct one, and it also allows for more speed when you need it. That said, there are times when your fingers simply have to be flattened to reach wider spans or reaching in further on the key surface to allow for other fingers to cross under or over. So, it's a combination of finger positions, but I was taught to always return to curved immediately, when possible. Flattened fingers tend to lock up the other fingers and the wrist.
Tuba playing........ in my opinion, curved normally, but it also depends on the rhythm being played, valve combinations, length of one's fingers, and speed needed to play the figure in the piece. Sometimes they're gonna be straight.

Several variables to consider.

[Ann Reid]

If I were able to curve my fingers, I’d still be playing bass clarinet.
Having played euphonium for an hour a day for the last ten or so months, I’ve realized that I can play somewhere between a curved and flat finger, aiming mostly to have my FINGER pads approximately on the piston caps.
My right hand index finger is the most arthritis deformed finger on my right hand, and my left hand pointer finger is much more deformed on my left.
I’ve been taking my lessons on a front piston horn since September, and the thought occurred to me the other day that it might be the best for my arthritis overall if I were to alternate between a valves up piston horn and the one I’m using now, so I plan to pursue that thought a bit.
I am finding that no matter how I baby the first valve it is always a problem with sticking, so now I’m wondering if I actually might be leaning against that valve more than the others.
Since I can’t do too much with changing my finger position because of the condition of my joints, I’m SUPER GLAD I can do what I can do. PLAYING has become much more rewarding to me than whining about not being able to keep playing bass clarinet. Feeling positive and lucky.

[Radar]

This may be total BS, but I've been told with piston valves to use curved fingers to get more of a straight up and down action of the valve which gives you more even valve wear. I was also taught to keep the tips of my fingers planted on the valves to avoid unnecessary movement of the fingers. This worked for me as I started on piano as a kid and it was close to the finger positions I use there.

I do find myself using a more flattened finger on rotary valves than I use on piston valves, I think this is mostly to position my finger tips properly on the valve paddles. I do find that I can play faster this way, but I'm not sure if it's about the action of the valves, or the fingers just move faster like this, or a combination of both.

I think the valve wear concern is fairly minimal, I would just experiment with what works best for the individual player.

[tbonesullivan]

Curved fingers definitely produces less stress than straight fingers. Fingers naturally curve. To get a straight finger, you need to actually use some tendons to pull the fingers straight, while the others making them move up and down. Now, if you have the resistance of something to push against, such as paddles, this works with much less stress. However piston valves on the whole take much less pressure over a greater distance.

So curved for everything but paddles for rotors.

[tubeast]

I prefer slightly curved fingers.
+ more comfortable, as closer to relaxed position (see posts above).
+ Important considering millions of impacts and thousands of hours holding down valves over a lifetime: axial load on your joints will cause less stress on Joint capsules than shear stress originating from normal force on straight fingers.
+ in general it seems to me that it is less harmful to one´s body to secure body positions by muscle tension rather than locked-out joints, as power lifters, wrestlers and gymnasts might agree.

[timothy42b]

Back in my student years of friend of mine needed a guinea pig for beginners violin lessons.
Finger position: arched.

Yes, and that supports my theory.

We are taught curved fingers because piano teachers insist on it. They insist on it not because it is superior but because they teach children, and children will collapse their finger joints if they don't curve. Advanced piano players have their hands in motion and are constantly moving through the continuum of flat to arched.

When I moved to valves I was careful to use curved fingers because it was "correct" and looked better. But I noticed when there was a speed challenge I tended to flatten, as it was easier. Of course I worked hard to break that bad habit. But when I observed others I noticed beginners start flat, end up curved later when their instructor forces them, and still default to flat when there is a technical challenge. Even pros who play mostly curved end up pretty flat part of the time.

So I tend to think that while tension is the enemy, and either extreme is probably bad, towards the flat end of the continuum is probably faster. I suspect that may be because curved fingers inhibit forearm rotation, and that is necessary for real speed.

Or not, who knows? Depending on body dimensions or tuba/euph dimensions, you may be forced into one or the other.

[timothy42b]

If I were able to curve my fingers, I’d still be playing bass clarinet.

The horror!

Never having attempted that I don't know if this is a possibility, but there is something called pipe fingering used on larger recorders and whistles. And pipes of course. But while I've played recorders and whistles I've been considerate enough to not attempt pipes. (And while I own a garklein, I have similarly refrained from playing in public.)

The holes are in a straight line, but your fingers are generally all different lengths, so getting the pads on holes doesn't work where you have to stretch. So they don't worry about pads. Usually you get your shortest finger pad on the hole, and with longer fingers you use the area between joints. The fingers stay fairly flat.

[Birdo]

I play a top action euph with arched fingers. But both the front action piston and the rotary tubas I’ve toyed with are played flat fingered. As bloke indicated, it’s a necessity because of reach/handspan.

[proam]

I generally play my pistons with arched fingers, especially if I’m playing something requiring every bit of technical speed I have.

However, this time of year, since I work outside most every day, my finger tips are so cracked and painful that I switch to flat finger and avoid the having the tips on the pistons.

[Lee Stofer]

I prefer to play with curved fingers, as I find it more comfortable, and suspect that flat-fingering would cause more fatigue and eventual damage, even on rotors, where one can more easily get away with doing so. The exact amount of curvature used is probably closely related to the physical dimensions of the player's hand, and the valve mechanism used. The physics would indicate that the more curvature one uses, the shorter straight-line distance there is between one's finger pads and the knuckles, and with little-or-no curvature, the finger pads are further away from the knuckles, changing the effective stroke length. My impression is that I have more power and control with curved fingers, but the layout of the particular instrument I'm using will have an effect on exactly how I approach playing it.

[basslizard]

I have a slight curve, but arthritis dictates how my fingers work. I struggle now with my oboe, because arched fingers are necessary, and I have always been sloppy since it has closed holes. I never could reach the bottom hole on my alto recorder. My stubby fingers are too short and not flexible enough. As I was playing tonight, I did notice that my valves were sticking a bit, and for some reason I was tending to arch my fingers a little more to stop that, or maybe it was the key change from flats to sharps and suddenly I'm having to play a B natural to C samba bass line.

[Eflatdoubler]

I try for curved fingers, as if I had a tennis ball in my hand.

[timothy42b]

I try for curved fingers, as if I had a tennis ball in my hand.

Piano teachers have told me that's way too curved, you need a natural relaxed hand that's somewhere between flat and that extreme ball position.

But on piano you can adjust more easily. On a valve you might have less choice, depending on how long your arms are. I see a short armed euph player locally that has to curve wrist and fingers to reach (and he gets some carpal symptoms as a result.)

The interesting thing to me is the word try, implying you have to force yourself to play artificially correctly. That''s how it feels to me too, and I see people under pressure revert to the more instinctive flat. That suggests to me that "correct" may be more for form than function.

[MaryAnn]

Due to hand size and strength, I played flat on rotors. If I have to play pistons, such as on a euph, I simply cannot play as fast by a long shot. I even for a while tried a front action Conn short stroke baritone, and it was ergonomically impossible.
On piano, I can barely reach an octave, and if I'm playing shorter intervals than that, my fingers are "naturally curved." But you do what you have to in order to reach.
I don't know how Carol Jantsch does it, because she does not have huge hands, although they are bigger than mine. But she is still young.

[toobagrowl]

I checked earlier tonight, and I have a slight curve to my fingers on all tubas -- top and front/side action pistons, and rotors. Depending on # of valves used and passages in music, sometimes my 3rd and 4th finger flatten out. My hands are fairly large. But most of the time -- slightly curved fingers.

[basslizard]

Due to hand size and strength, I played flat on rotors. If I have to play pistons, such as on a euph, I simply cannot play as fast by a long shot. I even for a while tried a front action Conn short stroke baritone, and it was ergonomically impossible.
On piano, I can barely reach an octave, and if I'm playing shorter intervals than that, my fingers are "naturally curved." But you do what you have to in order to reach.
I don't know how Carol Jantsch does it, because she does not have huge hands, although they are bigger than mine. But she is still young.

This is partially why I prefer three valves. I struggle with four valves, and not just because I have rarely had the chance to play with more than three. The exception was the full sized tuba I played in college. Unfortunately, as a non-music major, I wasn't taking lessons, and the internet was still based on telnetting into the university. I barely had time to practice, let alone master a 4th valve. The only horn I played with rotors is a bass trombone with two triggers. I wonder how much faster my fingers could be with rotors - first I'd have to get faster with my lips.