The debut of Arthur Pryor's Band - was Conrad there?

[Dave Detwiler]

Hi all,

The other day, my good friend, Steve Dillon, made me aware of one of the photographs posted at the website of the Museum of the City of New York. Nobody knows more about Arthur Pryor than Steve does, but we weren't sure what to make of the photograph - other than it was a very early one of the band.

1903-11-15 Pryor's Band at the Majestic.jpg

As it turns out, and I don't think the museum knows this, the photograph is from the debut concert of Arthur Pryor's new band, on November 15, 1903, at the Majestic Theatre in NYC! I've confirmed that in the following blog post:

http://tubapastor.blogspot.com/2020/04/ ... estic.html

Is Herman Conrad, Sousa's longtime Sousaphone star, in the band? I've reached out to the museum to get a hi-res version of the photo to see who all Steve and I can identify. But we are thinking Conrad is there. He definitely shows up playing with Pryor's Band the following summer.

Enjoy!
Dave

[Ace]

Conrad in there? Isn't that he in the center of the photo just below the back row? He's the guy with the mustache. Oh, wait. Half the guys in the band have mustaches.

Ace

[roweenie]

Sure looks like Conrad to me, and Hod Seavey (?) to his right (our left).

[Dave Detwiler]

Sure looks like Conrad to me, and Hod Seavey (?) to his right (our left).

That's what we are thinking as well, concerning Conrad, but I would prefer a better look at the faces and instruments, as the present version of the photo is pretty fuzzy.

Do you happen to know for sure that Seavey was in that initial band of Pryor?

[Dave Detwiler]

Is Herman Conrad, Sousa's longtime Sousaphone star, in the band? I've reached out to the museum to get a hi-res version of the photo to see who all Steve and I can identify. But we are thinking Conrad is there. He definitely shows up playing with Pryor's Band the following summer.

Hi again, all - just got access to a hi-res version of that photo, and that is indeed Herman Conrad, right smack in the middle of the band! So now we know that he left Sousa when Pryor did, and played in the debut concert of Pryor's Band!

[roweenie]

Sure looks like Conrad to me, and Hod Seavey (?) to his right (our left).

That's what we are thinking as well, concerning Conrad, but I would prefer a better look at the faces and instruments, as the present version of the photo is pretty fuzzy.

Do you happen to know for sure that Seavey was in that initial band of Pryor?

No certain knowledge, other than Seavey disappears from the Sousa roster after 1903, the same year Pryor started his band, and that Pryor took several of Sousa's men with him (I wonder if anyone has insight or inside knowledge on that occurrence!).

Also, I pride myself on having a good eye for recognizing faces and attention to details......

FWIW, I find it interesting that Pryor used the identical seating arrangement that Sousa used.

P.S. - maybe you can make the hi-res photo available for perusal?

[Dave Detwiler]

P.S. - maybe you can make the hi-res photo available for perusal?

I wish I could, but for now, the Museum of the City of New York, who owns the photograph, has only given me permission to examine the photograph myself, for research purposes. A fee would be involved, if the hi-res version was published anywhere.

But it now appears that the four tuba players in the lineup are, from left to right, Dominico Mirenda, Hod Seavey, Herman Conrad, and Luca Del Negro. All but Mirenda were in the Sousa Band that was on the 1903 European tour (the fourth there was William Sweetland).

I'm not 100% sure about that being Mirenda, but my research suggests that it probably is him, as he was said to have been with Pryor's Band from the beginning, and the darker face and really bushy moustache match a description and drawing I found of him back when he was with Gilmore's Band in 1889.

Also, it is perhaps significant that no one (esp. Conrad) is holding a Sousaphone; they all have standard tubas (the two we can see are front action piston valve horns). But Conrad was featured playing the Sousaphone in the band that following summer.

[roweenie]

So Pryor swiped 75% of Sousa's bass section......

I've got a picture around here somewhere (I wish I could find it!) of Sweetland (the lone tuba) in a small band that played in Coney Island in the mid teens (last century, of course).....IIRC, the leader's name was Harold Levy, and that a very young Harry Glantz was in the trumpet section.

There were about 20 players, and they were wearing white uniforms.

[windshieldbug]

Pryor also swiped Simone Mantia...

[Dave Detwiler]

Pryor also swiped Simone Mantia...

The so-called "swiping" was far greater still, it seems. One newspaper report states that 26 of Pryor's new band members were former Sousa men. That is almost exactly half of the Pryor Band!

And if you look at the listing of the Sousa Band for the 1903 world tour in Bierley's The Incredible Band of John Philip Sousa, p. 256, only 16 of those 56 men were still with Sousa in the next two listing of bands from 1905 and 1907 (the 1904 and 1906 bands are not listed).

Why the exodus, I wonder?

For Conrad, who landed a job playing with the house orchestra/band for the Victor Talking Machine Co. in Philadelphia, even while playing at times with Pryor, it may have been the opportunity to finally stay home with his family, after 15 years on the road with Sousa, and Gilmore before that.

I have found that he bought a house in Ridley Park (close to where the Philadelphia airport is today), and commuted by train to the recording studio first in Philly, and eventually in Camden, NJ. The irony, however, is that a handful of years later, Conrad's daughter, Henrietta, showed tremendous promise as a vocalist, so his wife accompanied her to Europe to study voice there for a number of years! Now Herman was the one stuck at home without a spouse!

[roweenie]

I just found this, you might have seen it already -

20200623_180337.jpg

("Victor Company", aka "Arthur Pryor")

Eleven years would put his departure from Sousa at 1903 - the same time that Pryor started his own ensemble and swiped a large chunk of Sousa's Band to do it.

[Dave Detwiler]

I just found this, you might have seen it already

Thanks so much for posting this - I have indeed seen it, but I'm always grateful for anyone sharing things they have found that might add one more piece to the puzzle of people's stories!

[tofu]

[

[roweenie]

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that Pryor promised his musicians a schedule where there would be more time at home (mostly recording) and less time on the road. There may be more to the story, but I think that since Sousa was generally highly respected by his musicians, and to be in the Sousa Band meant you had hit "the big time", this theory may be all there is to it.

If you read Paul Bierley's book, you'll soon discover that the Sousa Band had a grueling touring schedule.

[tofu]

.

[roweenie]

By 1903 the recording industry was already over 10 years old, and growing exponentially - Pryor was actually quite prescient in his move. He saw, way before everyone else, that the touring concert band was just a blip - it's very likely that the musicians that went with him saw this too.

Pryor was the #1 featured soloist and assistant conductor of the Sousa Band (aka the most popular and famous musical group in the USA), and by 1903 had several hit compositions to his name - he would have had NO problem in forming his own group, and getting instant recognition from the public.

And as to temperament, Pryor was widely known to be a far greater tyrant on the podium than Sousa ever was (he was actually verbally abusive to his musicians, even during concerts) - all accounts are that Sousa was a perfect gentleman on the podium who almost never swore. I just can't see the musicians leaving one "tyrant"for a far greater one.

As to "Sousa's Band", there were no long term contracts - every season was basically a new band, where the personnel was constantly changing based on individual availability. Many were the same, but quite a few would change year to year.

Many years after the split, the two men were still good friends, so I can't imagine Sousa was terribly upset for very long.

He has never struck me as a tolerant guy either.

I don't understand your meaning with this statement.

You can try to disparage Sousa all you want, but I just don't think there's any more to the story.

[tofu]

.

[roweenie]

I'll bet if anyone knows, it's Loras Schissel - I'll ask him next time I see him.

I thought the question raised was "why" - it doesn't take much imagination to assume Sousa was not happy about it, at least at the time.

[Dave Detwiler]

I'm sure Dave will eventually (hopefully) uncover some of the truth.

Thanks for the confidence in my detective work!

And roweenie, I'd love to know if and when you connect with Loras, as he seems to have dropped off of the map in the last year or two (Facebook page disappeared, and he hasn't responded to my occasional attempts to reach him by email; is he still at the LOC?).

Here's what I know, at present, about the Pryor/Sousa situation in 1903:

In the September 9, 1903 edition of the St. Joseph News Press Gazette, Pryor stated that “For five years I have been securing musicians to form my band and have succeeded in getting fifty of the best that the country affords." So, that means that Pryor had been planning his exit from Sousa's Band since about 1899. I wonder, did Sousa know about that? Or was it kept from him for five years?!

That article adds some other important details:

1. That Pryor headed home (St. Joseph), arriving on Sept. 8, 1903, to be with family until November, the very month his new band debuted in NYC.

2. Before heading home, he was in Philadelphia, “where he went in charge of Sousa’s band to fill an engagement with the Victor Talking Machine company, with whom Sousa has a contract to furnish band music for the records made by that company.” So, clearly, Pryor and Sousa were still working together, in a sense. No bridges had been burned, it seems.

3. “Mr. Pryor closed his musical career with the famous bandmaster, Sousa, in Blackpool, England, six weeks ago, after having played in the band for eleven years, traveling all over this country many times and making three tours of Europe.” Steve Dillon, who will probably have more light to shed on this than Loras, has added the thought that perhaps Pryor was overworked and underpaid, given his role as regular soloist, as well as assistant conductor. Those were eleven really busy years, and maybe he had just had enough of that life (and pay!).

4. A few details about the new band: “The offices of the band are located in the New Amsterdam theater on Forty-second street in New York City. James B. Barnes of Colorado Springs, who has been connected with Sousa’s band for several seasons, is the manager of the new musical organization and is at present engaged in booking the band for the coming season. The season’s concerts will open in November, the band playing first in New York and Boston, and then going on the road [with plans for the band to be in St. Joseph in Feburary]. . . . Mr. Pryor will pay the highest salaries of any bandmaster of the present time.”

I’m not sure that the Boston concert(s) happened, as I can find no record of them, and the tour around the country doesn’t seem to have happened either - at least at that time. The next time Pryor shows up is at Easter, in Asbury Park. Why can I not find any mention of concerts between the debut and that following summer?

Also, as you may have noticed, the promise of the highest salaries may have been part of the draw for the Sousa players that left to join Pryor’s band.

[roughrider]

Thank you very much for your outstanding detective work! This is a fascinating puzzle that is being put together. I have read Paul Bierley's book and the description by another poster of a "grueling" touring schedule for Sousa's Band is exactly spot on. Keep up the great work and your posts!