Do we have the courage to participate in this thread?

[Rick Denney]

The days of tubas selling because they have a great story or provenance, or because they come from the heyday (or present day) of American or German manufacture are gone. The age group that respected those stories already has what it wants, or has aged out.
....

For young players, new and shiny rates higher than provenance.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I also don't necessarily agree. Younger players do tend to want newer, shinier horns, but I think the cause is not that they want new and shinier, it's that playing isn't solely for fun yet. Once enough time passes, and the realization and acceptance that we're not going to play in the Chicago Symphony sets in, then the calculus for what horn to play sets in. For myself, I found that at that point, I wanted to play a horn with some fun, history, and/or a good story. And I wanted to try different types of horns - again, for fun. My PT6 was a great horn, but it was a Very Serious Tuba.

I'm pondering this. I don't think I've ever bought a tuba (except for Solder Practice and also except for the Martin fiberglass tuba that I should dub Epoxy Practice) that wasn't a Very Serious Tuba.

But do you mean a tuba that will "look right" when sitting in front of an audition committee? If so, then I've never been in the market for a Very Serious Tuba. That said, the instruments I've ended up with have Very Serious covered pretty deeply--a Holton 345, a Hirsbrunner HBS-193, a B&S 6-valve post-Symphonie "Symphonie", and even the Yamaha 621 F. In all cases, the purchases were motivated by what the tubas did, and even though I'm a second-rate amateur, their qualities were apparent to me and those around me. Same for the new Eastman. I suspect a young music student looks at me and thinks I'm the worst kind of poseur, but it seems to me those are Very Serious Tubas, even though I'm not a Very Serious Tuba Player.

Rick "of course, having fun is serious business" Denney

[Rick Denney]

...How much do proper photos and access to said photos matter? Lots of high quality photos that are embedded in the post or linked to a single gallery would be ideal. Sending PMs for photos seems counterproductive. If I am selling something, I’ll do like an honest car dealer (some exist) would:

-take lots of photos in sufficient lighting
-clearly point out damage
-show the parts susceptible to wear

In this day and age of high resolution cameras built into cellphones and image hosting services (like imgur) that strip EXIF data, I’d think there would be an abundance of image links in the for sale section.

This was my ad for the York Master: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=69271

I think I covered all aspects of your formula. I sure thought I was doing everything right. I received three interested responses. One was in Australia and the shipping costs were the killer. Another wanted a vastly lower price, which I agreed to eventually, but then the channel went silent. Another never responded to the PM I sent in response to his. And so it goes.

In the end, the buyer (who posted at the end of the thread) paid Dillon less than I was asking, but certainly well within my negotiating range. That buyer had sentimental reasons for wanting it, and I could not be happier that it went to such a person. The conclusion is: A lot of people are like Bloke, and have come to distrust the standing of the current owner (although it's laughable and a miracle of the Internet that I would have any standing at all) as a selling point. Or, it's not better than other larger 4/4 front-piston Bb tubas, many of which are for sale for similar prices brand new.

I'm not complaining--Dillon treated me very well as they always do--and the tuba that replaced it gets played whereas the YM did not. And Dillon did what the listing here could not do: Found the right buyer. That said, they sold it within a week.

I'm just not persuaded that the listing's production values are as important as we sometimes think.

Rick "what's important is the Three P's: Price, price, and price" Denney

[bort]

^ Thanks, Trebek.

[Matt G]

Dillon’s has a captured audience. People there are specifically interested in buying. Here, like many forums, there are a lot of “tire kickers”.

[bort]

A thought about upgrades, modifications, and extras...

"Extras" are exactly that... Extra. They don't particularly increase the sale price of the horn, unless they are removable, un-do-able, and re-sellable (looking in your direction, MAW valves...).

Or another way, unless there is some serious extreme improvement, I don't see there being much value add. Even a complete overhaul on the wrong tuba is not going to have much return. Yes, a Holton 345 out of Oberloh's shop is going to carry a premium. But a reworked King 2341, although still a very worthy and well regarded horn... Why not just buy a new one? Or, one of the well priced Chinese alternatives? The value isn't there.

Story time... Back in college, I had an acquaintance who had previously been really into mountain biking. He was also really into bad decisions, including indiscriminate spending. So he ended up with something like a $1000 bike, with $1500 of modifications. It was exactly what he wanted in a bike. Then he realized he needed money instead of a tricked out bike.

He knew my roommate was also really into biking, and mentioned to him that he was selling his bike. Knowing it was a nice bike, my roommate asked, "how much"? The reply: $2,500, for a $1,000 bike with $1,500 in upgrades.

My roommate laughed and said no way, not even worth the original $1,000 for a used bike with someone else's stuff done to it.

Tubas might be a little different, but not really. Changing a tuba for yourself rarely equates to value to the new buyer.

I also say this as the current owner of a tuba with some custom work previously done to it, and owned previously by a household name tuba player. Neither of those things were a factor for me in terms of buying it, beyond "it plays really well." And neither of them factored into the price for me either. It was a fair price. In fact, the price would have been more to undo the custom work.

Conversely, the excellent Anderson silver plating job on the tuba did likely drive up the price a bit. But, I do see the value in that (sorry, raw brass), both for my own vanity and for longevity of the horn and finish for the future.

[rodmathews]

Interesting to see how everyone thinks. The reality is we never know what something is really worth until we sell it.

I will add that I've sold a number of tubas through Baltimore Brass, and have had a great experience with that. I'm sure Dillon is the same kind of great experience based on my interactions with them. Putting the horn on a "lot" where motivated buyers can try stuff and compare to other instruments does certainly help. I've found that I've usually gotten MORE money that I would have selling those instruments on my own, and the shipping costs and commissions paid are worth the cost. Your mileage will certainly vary.

At the end of the day, there just isn't a big market for higher end tubas. It's a good time to be a buyer right now!

[bort]

I had considered sending my PT-606 to Baltimore Brass to have them sell it. I'm sure I would have gotten more for it (why? because they have since sold two PT-606's for FAR more than I sold mine).

A few reasons why I didn't do this:
* It's a hassle to ship a tuba to Baltimore.
* Extra kick in the pants, I'm *from* Baltimore, so there's added guilt that if I'm sending a tuba there, I should go back myself and visit my family. Wasn't good timing to make that happen, though.
* I was able to sell my tuba locally, to an excited and interested person.
* And not just "locally," but literally about 2 miles from my house.
* My sale price was the same as my original purchase price. I got a great deal on it, and felt it was appropriate to pay it forward. I thought it was a good price, and still a fair price. I really do believe those tubas are worth a LOT more than I sold it... but that's not what the used-tuba market says right now.
* At the time, a brand new PT-606 was for sale on eBay for <$1000 more than my sale price. Trying to sell my tuba for more than that at BBC (including costs to get it there) just didn't seem appealing to me.

All of that together made it just seem easier and faster to sell it locally for a decent price, and NOT go through the extra time, efforts, and cost to get it to BBC. In the end, I think everything ended up pretty even after all.

[bort]

I've bought tubas just to see what the hub-bub is all about (re: some never recently-hyped model, that doesn't seem to be on display in elephant rooms).
Often, I determine that it's not about that much, and I sell them (for more than I paid).

That's pretty much what I've done too... except I sell them for the same as I paid.

[Matt G]

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[Rick Denney]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=96263

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Selling an item that’s hot in the market at that moment helps.

But then so is the serendipitous availability of the right buyer. Dillon sold my York Master within a week, but to a former student of Oscar Lagasse who had played that very instrument in his lessons many decades ago. I feel sure that if he had seen my ad back when I placed it, he’d have had it in his hands long ago.

And had I offered it at, say, $2800 (a wholesale price), it would have sold in a week. But I didn’t need to sell it until there was another tuba I wanted to buy, and I’m trying to sustain a one-in, one-out policy.

I lost money on the YM, except for the incomparable value of what I learned and came to appreciate as a result of owning it.

This isn’t too far afield in this thread, which seems to me about our willingness to be realistic about value. I just think value has more dimensions than dollars.

Rick “an enthusiast, not a dealer” Denney

[Matt G]

Sure, Rick. I simply posted that as an example of something selling in a week. I agree completely on the notion of price != value. The impetus of this thread was to try to find some optimization point for a given type of tuba where it could flip in a week. My guess is that bloke was framing this in context of people trying to liquidate unneeded items in their home or place of business.

Selling any tuba that deviates from the norm will add time unless the price is ridiculously low as you point out. No way would I want to try to sell in this market.

I’m sure your Mirafone (and I understand why you won’t part with it) would sell rather quickly for a fair price. It’s a known entity. York Masters are not nearly as well known.

An aside: and plans on updating your site with the new Kaiser? It’s always fun to look at photos and seeing it next to your Holton would be an interesting visual comparison.

[bort]

Re: losing value... Tubas are not investments, and they lose value, except in very limited circumstances.

If you buy a tuba and sell it later for less money... Divide the difference by the number of years or months you owned it, and ask yourself if it was worth it. For example, I sold a tuba for $500 less than I paid for it, and in used it daily for 2 years. Was it worth ~$20 per month to own it for that time? Yup

[MaryAnn]

I thought I got a fantastic deal on my NStar, even though its used price was pretty much the same as the new price was many years earlier. When I sold it, it went on Phoenix Craigslist and I got two serious inquiries. One arrived sooner with cash in his pocket, play tested it for a few minutes, offered me $300 less than the asking price, I said no, he coughed up the full price and was nearly peeing his pants at getting that tuba for that price, which was $100 more than I paid for it with shipping. But the person I bought it from and I had the same philosophy.....a quick easy sale was much more amenable than trying to get top dollar. I basically paid it forward and know the tuba got a happy home. Some days I wish I could walk in the bedroom and toot on it but know I did the right thing.

[peterbas]

Deleted

[Tubaryan12]

Marzan BBb rotor - $2000

[Matt G]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=96838" target="_blank" target="_blank

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Had this horn sat much longer, I might’ve been $3000 poorer. It was only 45 minutes away.

[bort]

There have been a few MW 46 tubas for sale here over the years. $3000-ish seems to be the going price for these. I used to get excited to see a 6 valve F tuba at this price... But it's kind of just more tuning options in the same tight and "classic" F-tuba low range... Of which this tuba generally does not excel.

I like these horns... And have tried to get money and opportunity to like up several times in the past. But, to no avail. I do like these tubas though!

[bort]

While talking about classic-style MW tubas, I would expect the MW Bill Bell model to top out in the $3k to $4k range, for a good condition, 5-valve, with the fixed bell. If we are talking 4 valves with the detachable bell, then between $2,500 and $3,000. A littl hard to say prices for the condition that Joe described in the initial post here. Seems like most MW Bell models are worked super hard and get kind of worn out. Have I ever seen on in excellent condition? I don't think I have... Either because the old ones were so good, people held onto them and played them a LOT... Or because when these were out, they were one of relatively few CC tuba options. And it had the Big Dude's name on it, so if it was good enough for him, then...

For the MW-32, I'd say somewhere around $4,000 for one on really fine condition. Okay shape, closer to $3,500. And if it's a 4-valve MW-30, then closer to $3,000, less if it's in bad shape.

And yes, I actually like all of the models mentioned here. I owned an MW-30 stencil for several years, and it was a pretty nice tuba! And the Bell model is surprisingly decent... I had more luck with the Bell model than a 186, when I played them back to back.