Prelude to Act 3 of Lohengrin

[Mark]

Just curious. The high range may be an issue for the contrabass, but the contrabass should provide more power. The bass can handle the high notes a little easier and it has a nice edge at the loud dynamics. Finally, the part is actually labeled basstuba, which should be taken with a grain of salt.

Wagner = Always use big tuba?

[MikeMason]

i vote both. the opening,especially if taken up to the high g with the bones really needs an f. the final lick is really massive on a big horn,though could certainly be done on an f...

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Since Wagner specifies BASS tuba, I think an F tuba is the appropriate choice. (The last time I played it, I used a BBb, only 'cause that was all I had!)

i vote both. the opening,especially if taken up to the high g with the bones ...

I don't think that we have the right to "fill in the blanks" by playing the missing phrase that goes up to the G. Even if the conductor doesn't notice, it is not what Wagner wrote! Music is not about us, and our chops, but it is about the music, and trying to realize the composers' intentions.

[TexTuba]

Again, I don't have a bass tuba so I voted contrabass because that's what I practice that excerpt on. I don't think it's going against his wishes. Didn't Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique use ophecleides(sp)?

Ralph

[MikeMason]

i think the only reason he didn't write the high g lick was because he didn't think it was possible. could be wrong though...just seems to leave a big hole in the lick...

[Mitch]

As with most similar situations, whatever choice is made can be validated so long as it is an -informed- choice.

In the first quote, an arguable explanation for the tuba dropping out would be the inability of horns (or players) of that era to play and/or project in that register. If you look at the scores of Mozart and Beethoven, you'll see similar events for the flute and basson, as those instruments didn't have the range at that time they do now. Some people argue that you can "fill in the blanks," because it's arguable that those composers would have if the instruments would've been able to play it. In that excerpt, no other part for the other instruments playing the line is altered, only the tuba. So comparing to other known similar events, it's likely the limitations of the horns/players.

As far as switching horns, it's totally up to the tubist, conductor, and the hall. As a conductor who's also a tubist, the last two times I conducted it, I asked for CC on the whole piece. It should be known, though, that the driving factor in that decision was that the F just wasn't carrying as much in the hall (that and the bass trombonist had a HUGE sound, so the timbre of the F was getting lost in the sound of the bass trombone, rather than reinforcing it). Timbre is also a factor in general. In that first excerpt (letter B, I think - don't have it in front of me), the line is played by 4 horns in unison, 3 bassons in unison, 3 trombones in unison, the tuba, and all the basses. So a better question for each situation (tubist/conductor/hall) is which horn is going to not only blend best but contribute to the overall sound? When the timbre match is ideal, it's a gestalt kind of situation; the overall sound of the section is better - it sounds more like one massive wall than just 4 horns with 3 bassons with 3 trombones with...

In the second excerpt, the registration is expanded for a different color. The tuba's down an octave and the trombones and bassons spread out, with the 1st bsn. and the 1st and 2nd trombones up an octave from the 1st excerpt. As memory serves, the rest of the orchestra's playing pretty much the same thing as the first excerpt. If you've got an F (or Eb) tuba that can effectively play ff while the rest of the orchestra is playing ff and the audience can tell that the tuba's still playing, let alone down an octave, then use that horn. Again, it's a matter of sound/color preference. Some of the larger "6/4" F tubas can probably do it. Some of the smaller bore, smaller-sized horns may not be able to carry it without it edging out or just sounding pushed, or again, just not balancing the horns, bassons, trombones, and basses.

Not to mention that Wagner specified (or did he? maybe I should say "the parts specified") Bass Tuba and Contrabass Tuba at different times. But if you look at where those labels are used, they might seem questionable, especially given the low range on F tubas. I don't know whether anyone has ever researched the use of "Bass Tuba" and "Contrabass Tuba" in the editions of Wagner's music, but maybe that'll be someone's dissertation if it hasn't been done. Was it the printer's discretion as to which label was used? If you've got your Torchinsky book handy, turn to p. 19, "Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla" from Das Rheingold. That's labeled "Bass Tuba." Personally, I'd never use an F there. You'll also notice that the edition printed there is arranged by Zumpe, which may be as little as rewriting the ending so the piece could stand alone. But was the label Zumpe's, Wagner's, or the printer's? If you flip through the book, you'll notice that many of the parts are simply labeled "Tuba." Again, is this the publisher's doing, or Wagner's? The edition printed in Torchinsky for Meistersinger is labeled "BASS-TUBA," but I've never seen anyone in an audition environment playing it on F or Eb. So as far as horn choice versus the label printed on the page, it's difficult to argue if we don't know for certain the source of the label, especially if tradition is contrary.

Make an -informed- choice; consult your peers and teachers, ask for feedback on the sound, and do the necessary research. If you do, even if anyone questions your choice of horn, they'll respect your decision.

[Mark]

Not to mention that Wagner specified (or did he? maybe I should say "the parts specified") Bass Tuba and Contrabass Tuba at different times. But if you look at where those labels are used, they might seem questionable, especially given the low range on F tubas.

Yes, I don't think you can trust the way a part is labeled. (e.g. my copy of Fountains of Rome is labeled Basso Tuba.)

[ThomasP]

Just curious, did the contrabass tuba exsist in Wagner's time?

From my knowledge, and I'm open to being corrected. The first work written specifically for Contrabass tuba was The Ring Cycle. Which was written after Lohengrin.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, it won't hurt my feelings that much.

[rascaljim]

Here's another vote for both.
Jim Langenberg

[windshieldbug]

Whatever sounds best for you. (OK,OK, whatever sounds best for you playing the part as written on a tuba-sounding instrument. Jeesh!) Period.

[UDELBR]

my copy of Fountains of Rome is labeled Basso Tuba.

Actually, the score lists four trombones, and the fourth part is the one that tubaists usually play. I've played this part on my Eb cimbasso, and it fit extremely well. Considering that it's Italian repertoire of a specific era, it's (IMHO) probable this was Respighi's intent.

No fooling!

[THE TUBA]

This made me a little curious, so I checked my excerpts, and found some interesting results.
For The Ride of the Valkyries (sp), Wagner specifies contrabass tuba, and for Die Meistersinger, my part just says tuba. For the Lohengrin prelude, I would use a bass for B, then use a contrabass for D to the end.

Here are some other excerpts that are probably not played by the indicated instrument.
1812 Overture - BaB Tuba (I assume it means Bb tuba)
The Planets- Bass Tuba
Tchaik. 4- BaB Tuba
Ein Heldenleben- Bass Tuba
...

Most of my Tchaik excerpts are just marked tuba, so when he says Bb, does he mean it? How many people really play the songs indicated Bb tuba with a Bb tuba (besides the few who routinely use their's in orchestra settings)? Who actually plays the huge low register stuff in the Planets, A Hero's Life, and the Fountins of Rome with an bass tuba when they have a contrabass tuba? Does it really matter? The conductor and the audience will naturally want to hear what sounds best, and what best fits in with the rest of the orchestra; or, if the part calls for it, sticks out.

[Mark]

1812 Overture - BaB Tuba (I assume it means Bb tuba)

Actually, that's Baß. The last character, ß, is a German esset. It translates into English as ss. So, Baß Tuba translates to Bass Tuba.

[THE TUBA]

1812 Overture - BaB Tuba (I assume it means Bb tuba)

Actually, that's Baß. The last character, ß, is a German esset. It translates into English as ss. So, Baß Tuba translates to Bass Tuba.

Oh. Knew ß was a different letter that B, but I didn't feel like looking for the correct key-punch for that symbol, I just assumed everyone would figure it out.

So, you're supposed to use a Bass Tuba on 1812. Because most of Tchaikovski's tuba parts that I have say tuba, when he indicates Baß, it inclines me to believe that he means B.A.T. This would hold true with the Planets, a Hero's Life, the Fountains of Rome, etc.

[Mark]

point being can we possibly know how you sound, or your ensemble??? of course not! And if you already ARE taking lessons, shame on you for dragging the well-meaning tubenet into second-guessing the professional who is trying to help you become a better musician!

Are you directing this at me? Because if you are, you should go and take some lessons from a pro on how not to post offensive messages on TubeNet.

[Mark]

what is TRULY offensive is when you chose to retort like some thin-skinned putz---simjply because you are too damn defensive to see the intent of clear, direct advice - go take a lesson from someone like Chris Olka or Ja'tik Clark, and ask THEM after they've HEARD you play (assuming you CAN that is) ... they sure as hell will be able to better judge how you sound and provide advice about your equipment selection than ANYone here!

If your reading comprehension was better than third grade, you would have noticed in my first post that I was not asking advice on equipment selection. I was just curious what others were doing with this piece and why.

All of the responses, except yours, were polite and made for an interesting discussion.

[windshieldbug]

[MikeMason]

why do we have to make a thought provoking, interesting thread into a pissing match? there is much to be learned from others' opinions whether you agree with them or not.Either way they either confirm your own opinion or help reshape it to something better.

[TexTuba]

Well here's my question and I hope that it makes some sense. When I see all of these parts that have bass/contrabass tuba, is it really good to go by what they say? I mean, Wagner and Tchaikovsky didn't have the option of MW 2165's or Mira 184's. They had what they had and by no means is it as good as we have now. The same could be said for other instruments in the orchestra. And I'll bring it up again as an example. I heard that Berlioz originally wrote Symphonie Fantastique for ophecleides in Bb and C. But you don't see that piece being performed by those instruments do you? I have come to find after reading this thread that it doesn't really matter what you use, as long as it sounds good and fits the group. Take care.

Ralph

[UDELBR]

Wagner and Tchaikovsky didn't have the option of MW 2165's or Mira 184's. They had what they had and by no means is it as good as we have now.

Huh? While those particular models may not have existed then, they most certainly had (Big ***-) Kaiser tubas. And just how is it that you know that they were "by no means is it as good as we have now"?

Berlioz originally wrote Symphonie Fantastique for ophecleides in Bb and C. But you don't see that piece being performed by those instruments do you?

It occasionally gets played that way; but what's more important is that although Berlioz was thoroughly aware of the bass- and contrabass tubas and their potential, he almost exclusively wrote for either ophicleides, serpents, or a combination thereof 'til his death in 1869. Also not trivial: he ranted long and loud about musicians who saw fit to "improve" his music with their own changes. Does this mean we all oughta take up the ophicleide? No. A better approach is to use that expensive college education, and whatever common sense God gave you, and leave the York copy at home during Berlioz week.