water filling mouthpipe

[pjv]

It has always seemed rather strange to me that German style tubas most usually have a mouthpipe design which, once it rounds the bell, goes upwards, creating a major trap for water. Strange because the rest of these tubas are designed to very efficiently drain as much water condensation as possible from all valves straight through to the main tuning slide.

I know the mouthpipe is long, but still, it seems like a major contradiction in craftsmanship. They even do it often with F tubas.

Or am I missing some greater design?

[Matt G]

Does the roughly 15 degree tilt keep this from being a problem?

I also think that rise in the bend allows for a place for condensation to collect while the horn is on its bell and the player is counting rests so that it doesn’t dribble out the mouthpiece and welcome the player with some unwanted liquid when they pick up the horn.

This is assuming the player sets the horn down with (from the player’s perspective) a counterclockwise rotation and picks it up with a clockwise rotation.

[pjv]

Though I have played some tubas where the holding position was enough to let it drain, it’s not always the case.
When at rest laying the tuba across my lap (in the typical rest position) is enough to drain it.
It can be a problem when I play for some time with barely any rest. On a humid day that can happen after about 3 min non stop playing.
I can hit my spit valve on the fly (even while playing if it’s really necessary), but slanting my tuba doesn’t work on delicate passages.
I didn’t mean for this to be a whining session. But considering all the details going into making a product of this kind of craftsmanship, the hundreds of years which have lead to the horns we play today, I just can’t imagine that water build up in the most narrow tube on the tuba would be a non issue. Lowering the valve set down the body of the tuba would create more than enough room for a proper drainage slant on the mouthpipe. You’d also gain a more comfortable playing position for your hand as well. (I remember some of Matt’s rebuilds had this).
Maybe it’s all about tradition. Mouthpipes go around the bell, then they follow the bow before they verge off to enter the valves.
If I ever have to replace a mouthpipe, I might just have it bent so it ends higher up on the bell. Sure, the tuba might have to rest on the chair but so what, I’ve had that before.

[pjv]

Thanks for the 2 cents.
My playing requirements are both long playing or short bouts, more often the former.
I started off as an orchestra player but ended up in the everything else circuit (pop, jazz, theater, quintet, etc).
I gave up CC when I started getting crazy from improvising on a Bb (bass or tenor) trombone/euphonium/whatever and then making the switch to CC tuba, sometimes in the same tune.
Fortunately I live close to Germany so I have more than enough quality BBB’s to choose from. However I often end up in rehearsal spaces which could be warmer (including my own). So I deal with excess condensation all too regularly.
I get your point about CC and BBb worlds.
Seeing that BBb and F are the default tuba’s Germany
AND
they have a very vibrant orchestra scene as well as a their more traditional bands (wind bands, etc)
AND
they are the ones making German tubas....
AND
Germany can also be rather cold
I figured the must have a reason for having never changed their mouthpipe design.

But maybe it’s me? Maybe I produce more hot air when playing than other players, or not enough, cause even when the tuba is warmed up the instrument fills up regularly.

Spit and Shine tuba method?

[pjv]

Agreed.
I tried out two of them at Miraphone, side by side with the Hagen’s 497, 496 and all the F models.
Great service. Great tubas. Terrible testing room. If you’ve every warmed in a restaurant kitchen then you got the idea.
I left the 6/4’s behind for the same reason: larger than I can use. But it was almost a painful parting.

I went with the 496 because it’s more of that 5/4 feeling. It does most everything I need but is a little bit sensitive in the upper register.
These last couple of days I’ve been trying it out with an Imperial/profundo mpc and it gives me just a bit more control than I had with the Symphony/no profundo rim. Profundno. I have no idea why.
So I hope I feel the same way next week after my lips have settled into this setup.

[Donn]

(I'd LOVE to own one of these...I only wish that I felt that I NEEDED one of these, so I could justify acquisition.)

Bummer, huh? $20K burning a hole in your pocket, but no band gigs that would call for one of those BBb tubas.

The leadpipe does seem rather more extravagantly upside down than my mental picture when the subject was brought up, which was more the classic curve that you'd see in an Alexander for example.

[pjv]

Actually the topic was about German style mouthpipe placement and whether it just happened this way or is their a unbeknownst to me reasoning cause I think it sucks.

[P@rick]

That water trap in the mouthpipe is something I encountered on basically every German style tuba I have played. My upper body is long, so I tend to hold the tuba quite straight. This is also practical because the tuba weight is more in balance and my left arm does not have much weight on it. But the water trap is always there

When you tilt the tuba a bit more, then the water trap is not there with many tuba's (exceptions there), but that's in most cases uncomfortable.
If noise is not a problem I give a blow in the mouthpipe (no buzz) before I empty it all with the spit valve in the main tuning slide (still talking about German tuba style).
If silence is required, I tilt the tuba just enough to have the water to leave the trap. Twirling not required, but keep an eye on your colleague on the left

I still think that German style tuba's are most practical when it comes to draining water, but some effort is needed to overcome the design.

I can imagine that you want the the mouthpipe to be as "flowing" as possible, eliminating tight bends, for tone.
I can also imagine that you want the fragile mouthpipe close to other bigger tubing so it's not that exposed, thereby making it less fragile by design.
I see both of my assumptions in many German style tuba's...maybe manufacturers are choosing these factors above the anoying water trap?

P.s. I never have the problem when I'm marching with a German style tuba...

[P@rick]

> remove mouthpiece
> tilt to the right
> replace mouthpiece

...yes?

No, I tilt to the left. That way the trapped water will run trough the valves straight to the main tuning slide, where the spit valve is.
To the right works also, but you "have to" remove the mouthpiece and you have two puddles

[P@rick]

> remove mouthpiece
> tilt to the right
> replace mouthpiece

...yes?

No, I tilt to the left. That way the trapped water will run trough the valves straight to the main tuning slide, where the spit valve is.
To the right works also, but you "have to" remove the mouthpiece and you have two puddles

...yes...but the added benefits are
- pouring out spit next the the bass trombonist
- konking the bass trombonist on the head with a big ol' kaiser tuba bell

that would defiantly be a benefit when my right neighbor would be a trombonist, but my wingman on the right is a tuba player

In my main band, we are sitting in a tight formation and on my left is more space. On my left is an Eb tuba with the bell away from me and on the right a BBb tuba player with the bell pointed towards me. I think that this is the reason why I got accustomed with the lefty-tilt.

[Rick Denney]

Exactly.
The water aspect may well suck, but there probably aren’t too many other places to put that capillary portion of the instrument - on a large vertical main slide B-flat tuba - without screwing up hand position.

Yes. Let's consider the requirements:

1. Receiver on one end that accepts a (semi)standardized mouthpiece shank.
2. Valve bore on the other end in the 19+mm range.
3. Sufficiently anchored to minimize fragility.
4. Mouthpiece receiver at the humanoid height (and this requirement is often enough not fulfilled).
5. Valves located approximately coincident with human hands, and preferable the same human whose mouth is on the mouthpiece.
6. Bugle length 18 feet.
7. Valves in the correct portion of the bugle not to upset the intonation of the tapered bugle (also often enough not fulfilled).
8. Taper design that provides good intonation.
9. Taper design that produces a characteristic tone (as in, spectral content).

Considering all those requirements, let's look at instruments with short leadpipes. The typical piston tuba has a short leadpipe (16-1/2 inches in the case of the formerly mine York Master), but also has a smaller valve bore, and is designed with a fast taper. The fast taper and bell shape provides a characteristic tone. The typical rotary tuba has a much longer leadpipe (27-1/2 inches for the formerly mine Miraphone 186) and a larger valve bore. The taper is even faster, though, because the instrument postpones the taper to farther along the bugle. Again, this design provides a characteristic tone, but which is different from the typical piston tuba of similar overall size.

We can make a rotary tuba have a short leadpipe. Consider the B&S F tuba, where the leadpipe typically comes into the side of the fifth valve (which is the top valve even on six-valve models) rather than the top. With these tubas, the first, fifth, and sixth valves are a smaller bore than valves 2-4, which are progressively larger. Thus, this instrument has a unique taper design. Newer versions that enlarged those first three valves in the airstream created a different set of compromises, and have a different characteristic tone and intonation. On most Bb rotary tubas, which have four valves, the leadpipe approaches the first valve from the top. That means it has to have a dip in it that holds water to fulfill all the requirements.

But tradition also counts for a lot, and doesn't have to have a design reason. Here is the contrabass tuba from Cerveny, the inventor of the contrabass tuba, about 30 years after its invention:



In the 140 or 150 years since this instrument, not much has changed in the basic architecture of a German-style rotary tuba. Is that commitment to a design, or a statement about the effect of tradition? I suspect the latter. As Bloke says, don't screw with success.

Now, what does it take to drain water from the leadpipe? A quick tilt to the left.

Rick "who has owned a number of these types of instruments and played them routinely in cool, humid environments, and this is not where water collection has been a problem" Denney

[pjv]

I find it interesting how many reactions have been "if there's water in the mouthpipe, then empty it".
Obviously, and we are all adult enough to figure out where when and how to do this.

The question about why it's made like this has been answered I believe; somewhere between "tradition" and "never change a winning team".

My quibble is clear, though I didn't go into details like when you get a dump of water back down your throat while playing. This certainly happens to me at least 3x a year and probably also has something to do with the mouthpipe being very horizontal. So if I happen to have moved my body backwards a bit, for whatever reason (most people move a bit while playing, especially during a long haul) this could happen. I've missed notes because of this.

But it appears that I'm almost the only one on this board that's dealing with. So I deal with it.

I didn't mention just irritating aspects, like when I quickly move to write something down on my music and in this proces have moved my tuba up straight and a bit to the right it dumps water through the mouthpipe and mouthpiece onto my shirt. But....I can live with that!

[Donn]

7. Valves in the correct portion of the bugle not to upset the intonation of the tapered bugle (also often enough not fulfilled).

Is that a fairly well understood parameter, such that we could for example gauge for ourselves whether a particular tuba is correctly designed? No difference between rotary and piston valves, I assume.

The most annoying thing about typical front-action piston tubas is that water collects in the #1 and #2 slide circuits, and it WOULD drain, were those pistons able to be ported in a different way.

If I'm thinking of the same thing, it's one reason I'm glad to be rid of my old King 1250 - and just looking at pictures, I've had the impression that the Reynolds valves for their similar tuba would not have that problem so much.

[Rick Denney]

7. Valves in the correct portion of the bugle not to upset the intonation of the tapered bugle (also often enough not fulfilled).

Is that a fairly well understood parameter, such that we could for example gauge for ourselves whether a particular tuba is correctly designed? No difference between rotary and piston valves, I assume.

No. And there are many non-linear interactions that confound modeling, despite the software that currently exists. But that’s the reason for tradition—formulas arrived at by experimentation cost a lot, and are therefore preserved in use. We generalize based on that, but we still evaluate each instrument individually, noting differences between apparently identical tubas. Obviously, more than one formula “works,” though with a different set of compromises.

Rick “too many variables” Denney

[P@rick]

...when you get a dump of water back down your throat while playing...and...when I quickly move to write something down on my music and in this proces have moved my tuba up straight and a bit to the right it dumps water through the mouthpipe and mouthpiece onto my shirt...

I feel your frustration. I'm also familiar with this kind off anoyens.

There are a few german style tuba's which don't have the water trap and I can think of other solutions to the problem (like the Hirs 390 mouthpipe curl with spitvalve)...but why most tuba manufacturers disregard the issue with the water trap in their designs...I can only guess...

Still not helping

[Three Valves]

NO!!

[pjv]

Seeing as most German tubas also sport the tall bell design, I surmise that placing the mouthpipe higher up on the bell would allow the manufacturer to avoid the upslope.
I’ve taken a “piece-of-string” measurement on two of my tubas and the mpc placement is comfortably acceptable, assuming one has no issues with placing their tuba on the chair instead of their lap.
This to me is two advantages as an aging tuba player:
1 I the quite regular back and forth choreography needed to empty they mouthpipe fill-up at the “dip” have now been resolved.
2 the tuba is off my legs. Not all German tubas are light.
At the end of the day, I prefer that my physical and mental energy have been spent concentrating on the music, and not with other distractions.