Intonation of C Valve Trombones

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Worth
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by Worth »

For anyone interested, this morning I cut 5mm off the second valve slide and about 15mm off the first valve slide. Rough finished, reassembled, and a big smile! I figure this bone is mine for the long haul so I'm not worried about resale, and it is now very much in tune with itself. The third valve slide I'll leave as is. I read on another forum that Harry James used to set his third valve slide out a bit and just leave it there. This simple modification was just the trick and now I can adjust the slides properly.
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by jerseyeuph »

Curious if the OP still has the Packer valve trombone in C and, if so, how it’s held up over time. I’m considering this as well as the Jupiter 720 for myself.
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Worth
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by Worth »

I still have it and for the price, it is a great horn. Originally, I could not get it in tune with itself as the length of the first and second valve circuits were each a bit too long. My impression was that it was designed as a Bb horn with the main slide cut to C and no consideration given to the valve circuits during manufacture. The above posts describe how I cut them myself. I don't mind the third circuit a bit longer as it is. Also, once I cleared out manufacturing debris (common to some new horns) the valves smoothed out nicely. My most important consideration is to have workable intonation in a smaller ensemble where you can really tell. I am not sure of the price of the Jupiter, but my question on researching each would be just that, are the valve circuits specifically designed for a C horn. Hope this helps!
2014 Wisemann 900 with Laskey 30H
~1980 Cerveny 4V CC Piggy
1935 Franz Schediwy BBb
1968 Conn 2J (thinking of selling)
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by jerseyeuph »

Very helpful. Thank you!

A new Jupiter is ~$1150, so a few hundred more than a new Packer. The parallel valve slide tubes are much closer together (like a trumpet), so it might be more difficult to cut them down (if necessary) without disassembly and then resoldering.

Did you use a plumbers’ pipe cutter to cut down the intact Packer slides?
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Worth
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by Worth »

Everyone who really knows how to do this please excuse what you are about to see

I used one of these from Home Depot very slowly and carefully but you should not have to do this to a new horn, possibly Jupiter has addressed this in their design and manufacture

Image
2014 Wisemann 900 with Laskey 30H
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1935 Franz Schediwy BBb
1968 Conn 2J (thinking of selling)
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by jerseyeuph »

I didn’t see anything. ;)
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by timothy42b »

jerseyeuph wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:10 am I didn’t see anything. ;)
And for my part, I promise not to reveal that you used JBWeld instead of solder to reassemble.

Seriously, I've been told by a tech that for cutting thin tubing he uses a jeweler's saw, which is basically a coping saw (rather than the hacksaw you posted) with an appropriate tooth pitch.

I would have reached for my Dremel but he said he gets better results with a saw.
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Worth
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by Worth »

timothy42b wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:19 am
And for my part, I promise not to reveal that you used JBWeld instead of solder to reassemble.

Seriously, I've been told by a tech that for cutting thin tubing he uses a jeweler's saw, which is basically a coping saw (rather than the hacksaw you posted) with an appropriate tooth pitch.

I would have reached for my Dremel but he said he gets better results with a saw.
The access was crazy but I did not disassemble. There were times I removed the blade from the handle to work more slowly and with very little back and forth saw movement due to access. I was already out of my league, if disassembly were required I would have been even farther out and would have punted. Working without damaging adjacent surfaces was stressful!
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~1980 Cerveny 4V CC Piggy
1935 Franz Schediwy BBb
1968 Conn 2J (thinking of selling)
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by TubaBeage »

Looks like the Wessex C has shorter slides than the Bb, Johnathan would confirm that.
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by Dylan King »

The Wessex French C could be an interesting alternative to a valve trombone.

https://wessex-tubas.com/collections/cc ... tuba-tc236
Mira 291 CC
Yorkbrunner CC
Eastman CC
YFB-822 F
YFB-621 F
PT-10 F Clone
MackMini F
YBL622 B-TB
YSL891Z TB
Xeno Bb/C Trps
Taylor Bb/C Trp
Eclipse C Trp
Yamaha C Pic
Lawler C7 Trp
Osmun Corumpet
Carol Pocket Trp
Schagerl Gansch Horn
Monette Ajna Trumpet
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by timothy42b »

Worth wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 7:24 pm
SteveP wrote:I don't understand how a player who usually plays a Bb instrument would find it easier to read the same music when playing a C instrument. If I were playing a C trombone (valve or slide) I'd be thinking about playing each note fingered (or slide position) one full step lower than usual. How is this effortless? What am I missing?
It's OK I probably didn't explain it well. I don't usually play a Bb instrument reading BC, so in that situation I am like you dealing with reading everything one step higher than usual (backwards to your deal). I can do it, but the mental exercise takes away from the enjoyment of it all. I came into the C Tuba world from TC trumpet via TC Euphonium, but as a piano player I read BC and TC fluently. This allows me just read the notes for what they are at concert pitch and just think of it all like left and right hands playing piano. The C Valve trombone therefore uses the similar fingerings as everything else keeping this beautifully flawed system working. Not ideal, but it is something I can wrap my head around and enjoy myself with less introduction of error, especially when sight reading.
In the early days 18th century? There was something called a Parson's trombone, pitched in C, supposedly to assist in playing hymns without transposing. It never made a lot of sense to me but the reasoning seems to be about the same as yours.
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by iiipopes »

Made for young players, but could have the rotor turned to make it a C bone, does anybody have experience with this one: YSL-350C?
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by jerseyeuph »

Re: YSl-350C
There is an ongoing discussion about this horn and JinBao clones in the Instruments section of Trombone Chat.

Ascending valve to C, dual-bore, lightweight and very well made. I owned one and wish I hadn’t sold it. They aren’t very common in the US. Schiller and J Packer sell very similar horns. Possibly Thomann, though the bore spec is different - I suspect an error.
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Re: Intonation of C Valve Trombones

Post by greenbean »

iiipopes wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:53 pm Made for young players, but could have the rotor turned to make it a C bone, does anybody have experience with this one: YSL-350C?
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical ... tures.html
These are great little horns! Well made and they play very well. And small.
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