Flat 20K's....

[mdc2d]

Tuba-nation:
I'm teaching a band camp this week and I was tuning the tuba section when one guy was registering his F as a really, really sharp E. Needless to say I was confused. I stopped to make sure my tuner wasn't calibrated to like 475 or something, and it was indeed on 440. Of course my curiousity perked up, and had the guy next to him play an F as well, same result. Extremely flat! Then I had one more (from the section of four tubas) play an F, his was perfectly fine. Same for other one. Now, all four tubas were Conn 20K's. However, the two that were so extremely flat were ones the band director had just picked up from the shop from being serviced (dent repair, cleaned...you know, the general summer sousaphone work). The other two were beater 20K's that looked like hell but played perfectly fine. I then got my mouthpiece and tried out all four horns for myself. Sure enough the best I could do on the flat ones was to lip it up to a 45 cent flat F. Once again the others were perfectly fine.

Do any of you have any idea what is going on here?? ANY advice would be great! Thanks!
MC

[cjk]

Do any of you have any idea what is going on here??

Yeah....

Lots of 20Ks have really flat third partials.

20Js do too.

[Dan Schultz]

Don't rule out the possibility that a tech may have made a mistake with the piston alignment or that the horns may have leaks.

[Paul Scott]

A while back someone posted an interesting fact re the flat 3rd partial on Conns. Apparently Conn made a conscious design decision to go with a flat 3rd partial (F) as opposed to a flat 5th partial (D on staff). Some service notes from Conn were quoted on that fact-it seemed to be an "either/or" decision. Some early articles on BBb tuba-playing suggest the alternate 1-3 for the F-not always so satisfactory.
The "missing F" syndrome is very common on early BBb tubas of all makes, not just Conn. I have a '30s York in the basement that has the same problem.

[WoodSheddin]

I use a 1 3 fingering combination on the F just below the bass clef staff and also the C in the staff.

At first I was hoping that the title of flat 20k's had something to do with a large vehicle and a frustrated musician.

[windshieldbug]

At first I was hoping that the title of flat 20k's had something to do with a large vehicle and a frustrated musician.

...and I was hoping for a horn with a less shiny finish than matte, oh well...

[Lew]

I have owned 4 2XJ tubas and one 20K sousaphone. Only one of them had an F that could be played open with any semblance of intonation. 1-3 usually works, but doesn't have the same response. Overall the sound and presence of the horns made them worth it for me. I no longer own any of them, so maybe that's saying something.

[Kevin Miller]

Hey Bloke-I played an Army surplus 14K in high school and I loved that horn. I could shred metal with that horn like nobody'e business. It was easy to get a good controlled edge on that horn. Ah, to be young and foolish......

[Dan Schultz]

why not use 1-3 for f on a 3-valve BBflat horn? different partial then, isn't it?

I have a Martin 'mammoth' sousa, a 36K sousa, and a Conn 14K 4V sousa... all BBb horns. I also play Eb horns a lot. I find myself using 1-3 sometimes just out of habit. I can't really tell that using 1-3 for F makes all that much difference! I have a total of 14 tubas, sousas, and helicons in either Eb and BBb. All of them have at least one intonation quirk. Whoever once said that tubas were designed to be played with their slides pulled out 1/2" was full of ....

[manatee]

Errrrrr, Had they been stored in a really cold place? Temp does matter.

[mdc2d]

Thanks for the suggestion of the alternate fingering. I guess I didn't think the horn would be that badly out of tune. The horns weren't cold, had just been outside in 90 degree heat an hour before. Anyhow, thanks for the replys! MC