another mic question- condensers in the mouthpiece.

Monty · Post by **Monty** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:05 am

What are the advantages of having a condenser mic in the mouthpiece of the horn? Ive heard of a couple of players who like to mike themselves in this way.
Also - do any of yall work with loop machines and if so are there ones that you prefer.
Thanks

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:19 am

How do you put a mic in the mouthpiece and still play? What do you do with the wires and the water?
Phil

Monty · Post by **Monty** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:48 am

Consider that part two of my question!!
My understanding is that a small hole is drilled and a piezo is inserted into the side. Its an odd concept thats why Im curious to know if anyone here does that and why.
I would imagine that it would emphasize the attack. I also assume its more for Tuba and synth or guitar music.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:17 pm

I am experimenting with a Barcus-Berry transducer. These types of pickups are inserted into a 1/4" diameter drilled through the exposed part of the mouthpiece shank. How does it work? Don't know yet. I have a preamp coming and will know more in about a week.
At this point, I am getting very good results with a little 'cheapo' cordless lapel mic dropped down the bell about a foot and held in place by a clip on the bell rim. I'm also using a Korg AX1500G modeling effects processor run through a Roland KC550 keyboard amp. The results are pretty awesome!

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:43 pm

You do not want a condenser microphone inside the mouthpiece. They can not withstand the extreme sound pressure or the high humidity. Consider a piezo or dynamic mic instead.

-Eric

dtemp · Post by **dtemp** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:48 pm

I've tried to find the Barcus-Berry thing. So far their website and eBay have turned up nothing. Where did you guys get these?

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:18 am

dtemp wrote:I've tried to find the Barcus-Berry thing. So far their website and eBay have turned up nothing. Where did you guys get these?

The folks who bought Barcus-Berry are at 843-763-9083... South Carolina, I think. They also have a toll-free FAX number - 800-641-8393.

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:05 pm

I suggest mounting the business end of an in-ear headphone into a hole drilled into the mouthpiece if you really want a mouthpiece pickup. I'm talking about the kind with the foam plug that fit tightly within the ear such as the Sony pair mentioned on this board not long ago. It will work as a microphone with low sensitivity, which is what you want.

-Eric

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:14 pm

It's funny--the term "condenser" went out of common electronics parlance by the 1950's. So why do we still hang onto the term "condenser microphone"? Why isn't it universally known as a capacitor microphone?

...just one of those little nagging inconsistencies in life, I guess.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:33 pm

What am I missing here?

All my adult musical life I've had opportunites to go into the studio on various instruments, starting with violin, moving to viola, then french horn. So far, not tuba. In all cases the problem has been studio personnel who don't have a clue how to mike an acoustic instrument. They have a room that has been acoustically deadened as much as possible; they want to stick the mike one inch from the violin bridge, which makes a $10,000 violin sound like a $50 plywood box. They want to stick the mike right on the bell of the french horn, which makes a beautifully ethereal instrument sound like a plastic funnel. Then, when the recording is done, I can't get them to do the EQ to fix things, that is, they leave the $10,000 violin sounding like a $50 box. Etc. These instruments are designed to be played in a concert hall, and the sound isn't the sound we paid all that money for, unless the acoustic properties of the instrument are combined with the acoustic properties of a hall. Like, folks, these are not electric guitars!

So why would you want to put a mike in a tuba mouthpiece? Why attach the tuba to it at all, if that's the sound you want? How about just using the mouthpiece, since that's the sound you're going to get anyway? Like, it isn't going to sound like a tuba; it's going to sound like someone buzzing into a mouthpiece. Why spend the money on a tuba if you're going to mike the mouthpiece?

As I said, what am I missing here?
MA

Kevin Hendrick · Post by **Kevin Hendrick** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:15 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:It's funny--the term "condenser" went out of common electronics parlance by the 1950's. So why do we still hang onto the term "condenser microphone"? Why isn't it universally known as a capacitor microphone?

...just one of those little nagging inconsistencies in life, I guess.

Perhaps we lack the capacitance to change?

MaryAnn wrote:... why would you want to put a mike in a tuba mouthpiece? Why attach the tuba to it at all, if that's the sound you want? How about just using the mouthpiece, since that's the sound you're going to get anyway? Like, it isn't going to sound like a tuba; it's going to sound like someone buzzing into a mouthpiece. Why spend the money on a tuba if you're going to mike the mouthpiece?

As I said, what am I missing here?

Nothing, as far as I can tell -- that's a good point!

tuba kitchen · Post by **tuba kitchen** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:18 pm

I've never tried a condenser mike, but I do use a loop station, it's easy to use, not too expensive and you can store already looped material in it.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:57 pm

MaryAnn wrote:What am I missing here? .....Why spend the money on a tuba if you're going to mike the mouthpiece? As I said, what am I missing here? MA

MA... it sounds odd but it doesn't matter where on a tuba you put the mic. You can drop it down the bell if you like. I once thought it would change the pitch if you inserted the mic 3' into the bell... but it doesn't. A pickup in the mouthpiece with reproduce the tuba sound... not just the buzz. Maybe Rick Denny can shed some 'smart' light on this subject.

Pastor McPurvis · Post by **Pastor McPurvis** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:15 pm

I has been several years since I have used one, but I have some experience with the Barcus Berry pick-up.

I installed mine in a Bach 18. I remember that contrary to what you may expect, the pick up actually deadened the attack a bit. It also seemed to roll off some of the higher overtones creating more of an unfocused, bass-y sound, somewhat like a fretless electric bass. It didn't change the sound so much that you wouldn't say it was a tuba, but it was different then simply using a microphone. I actually quite liked it. I do remember it picking up ANY mechanical noise my horn made (linkage noise, clicks, even tapping my fingers on the horn were reproduced loud and clear).

Dan, could you tell me where you found your pre-amp? I still have my pick up but I lost the pre-amp in a move years ago. Nothing else seems to work.

Pastor McPurvis

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:28 pm

Pastor McPurvis wrote:I has been several years since I have used one, but I have some experience with the Barcus Berry pick-up. ......Dan, could you tell me where you found your pre-amp? I still have my pick up but I lost the pre-amp in a move years ago. Nothing else seems to work.
Pastor McPurvis

I bought the Barcus-Berry preamp here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

Dylan King · Post by **Dylan King** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:50 pm

MaryAnn wrote:All my adult musical life I've had opportunites to go into the studio on various instruments, starting with violin, moving to viola, then french horn. So far, not tuba. In all cases the problem has been studio personnel who don't have a clue how to mike an acoustic instrument. They have a room that has been acoustically deadened as much as possible; they want to stick the mike one inch from the violin bridge, which makes a $10,000 violin sound like a $50 plywood box. They want to stick the mike right on the bell of the french horn, which makes a beautifully ethereal instrument sound like a plastic funnel. Then, when the recording is done, I can't get them to do the EQ to fix things, that is, they leave the $10,000 violin sounding like a $50 box. Etc. These instruments are designed to be played in a concert hall, and the sound isn't the sound we paid all that money for, unless the acoustic properties of the instrument are combined with the acoustic properties of a hall. Like, folks, these are not electric guitars!

As I said, what am I missing here?
MA

In Hollywood you rarely see microphones placed so close to the instrument. Tuba mics are usually way up in the air above the bell. Even mics for the strings aren't placed close to the instruments like you described. And they use expensive reverbs to make the band sound like it's in a concert hall, not a dead studio.

Here's a picture of a session I conducted. The mics in the front are for the strings. The french horns are behind the baffle on the left, and the trumpets, trombones, and tuba are out of view on the right.

Here's another from the Newman stage at fox with the tubas. I believe it was taken recording the "Pearl Harbor" soundtrack by Hans Zimmer. Notice how high the microphones are placed above the players.

The studios you have been in obviously need a little more education. Perhaps they should try reading tubenet.

Dylan King · Post by **Dylan King** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:01 pm

When I perform on stage in loud situations that require a microphone (rock, jazz, etc...) I use a phantom powered dynamic from Blue Microphones. I place it much closer to the horn, about 1 foot above the bell, so it gets more tuba sound than leakage from the monitors. The dynamic makeup of the mic allows one to play at very high volume without distortion.

In a studio situation condenser mics are used for the tuba, hence the placement so high above the instrument. The mic would distort if placed too close. It also gets a greater span of overtones when placed further away from the instrument. Think about it. If one was sitting right next to Norm Pearson in the Disney Hall, they wouldn't hear nearly as full and colorful a sound as they would sitting further out in the hall. The more the air gets a chance to vibrate, the warmer and more tuba-beautiful the sound will be.

Paul Tkachenko · Post by **Paul Tkachenko** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:54 am

Hi all,

I'm still looking into this. Does anyone know the model number of the Sony headphones that might work in the mouthpiece?

I'm still interested in trying a Poullath clarinet barrel pickup, just not sure where the best part of the horn would be to insert it (it will require a hole to be drilled!)

Paul Tkachenko · Post by **Paul Tkachenko** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:58 am

Hi all,

I'm still looking into this. Does anyone know the model number of the Sony headphones that might work in the mouthpiece?

I'm still interested in trying a Poullath clarinet barrel pickup, just not sure where the best part of the horn would be to insert it (it will require a hole to be drilled!)

I'd also love to know the model of the Barcus Berry so I could try and locate one.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:22 am

It is my understanding that the BB pickup you are looking for (tuba) was discontinued long ago. I will have to second everything negative about these that has ever been said. The BB setup in the MP picks up all sorts of mechanical noise. I also had feedback problems with these, but that may have been unique to the particular application - heavy metal tuba solo w/ distortion pedal & huge amp. When I go to amped gigs, I use very close to what Dylan King uses - a phantom powered condensor clip on mic (AudioTechinica-35pro) at the bell. The clip on isolates the mic from the valve noises and you get a great tuba sound. Different applications will call for different setups.

TubeNet

another mic question- condensers in the mouthpiece.

another mic question- condensers in the mouthpiece.

Re: another mic question- condensers in the mouthpiece.

Re: another mic question- condensers in the mouthpiece.

Re: another mic question- condensers in the mouthpiece.