Pedal notes mouthpiece

[Hank74]

I wanted to ask what would be the best mouthpiece for playing the really low pedal notes below the low E, three lines below the B.

Hank74

[Phil Dawson]

Pedal tones should not be the first consideration in chosing a mouthpiece although generally bigger works better. If the mouthpiece is too big you will lose control and sound quality. I find that after many years of working on it I can go down to a double pedal C (yes it can be played) with almost any mouthpiece. Practice, practice, practice. If only all it took was buying a new piece of gear.
Good Luck, Phil

[poomshanka]

I've used a mouthpiece that was great for those low notes a few times. It's a one off so unfortunately not available. The cup was undercut under the rim so that the cup was actually wider than the rim. It was great for those low E's in Fountains of Rome.

Kanstul has a mouthpiece like this in their CNC library. Tommy Johnson uses one on his Gronitz PCK, John Van Houten uses one on his rotary Neptune, and I use one on my rotary Willson 3050. I believe Gene Pokorny has used one as well, calling it his "CVSM" (Charlie Vernon Survival Mouthpiece). Big throat, big backbore, shallow cup, slight undercut on the rim. It definitely helps light up the basement register.

These mouthpieces are copies of an old Harrick design. Tommy's has a Marcinkiewicz N4 rim (mine too), and John's is more like a Miraphone C4. Touch base with Jim New at Kanstul. I think they run around $125/copy, but don't quote me on that!

http://www.kanstul.com/pages/staff%20pgs/jimn.html

Of course, if you're ever in Southern California, you're more than welcome to stop by and try mine out.

...Dave

[JB]

I've used a mouthpiece that was great for those low notes a few times. It's a one off so unfortunately not available. The cup was undercut under the rim so that the cup was actually wider than the rim. It was great for those low E's in Fountains of Rome.

Kanstul has a mouthpiece like this in their CNC library. Tommy Johnson uses one on his Gronitz PCK, John Van Houten uses one on his rotary Neptune, and I use one on my rotary Willson 3050. I believe Gene Pokorny has used one as well, calling it his "CVSM" (Charlie Vernon Survival Mouthpiece). Big throat, big backbore, shallow cup, slight undercut on the rim. It definitely helps light up the basement register.

These mouthpieces are copies of an old Harrick design. Tommy's has a Marcinkiewicz N4 rim (mine too), and John's is more like a Miraphone C4. Touch base with Jim New at Kanstul. I think they run around $125/copy, but don't quote me on that!

http://www.kanstul.com/pages/staff%20pgs/jimn.html

Of course, if you're ever in Southern California, you're more than welcome to stop by and try mine out.

...Dave

From the written descriptions, these sound rather similar to what Ellis Wean designed with his Tru-View acrylic mouthpieces (the undercut notion).

[MartyNeilan]

FWIW, the G&W Alan Baer model has been praised by many for its competence in this register. It is also an excellent all-around model, unlike many "specialty" mouthpieces. It also has a lot of "color" and "punch" to the sound, dare I say it is almost bright sometimes - but in a good way. Some tubists see "bright" as a bad word; they are worried about the darkest and broadest sound at the expense of focus and clarity.
A low register with "color" will project more than one that is dull and woofy.

I used to go to school with a guy who was always worried about his pedal register. Too bad he never worried about anything else. I don't think he plays much anymore.

Marty "who hates trying to describe sounds with words" Neilan

[Pete Link]

I believe Gene Pokorny has used one as well, calling it his "CVSM" (Charlie Vernon Survival Mouthpiece).

He may well have replaced this with another mouthpiece by the same nickname, but I seem to recall Gene pulling his "CVSM" out and showing it to me quite a few years ago and it was a Marcinkiewicz-made 'piece.

His mouthpiece was made for him by Larry Minnick for use on his Yorkbrunner for the CSO audition. The thing is a monster and very heavy. It does indeed have "CVSM" stamped on the side wall. I tried it for a week or two and have heard Gene play it. Quite the interesting piece!

Pete

[poomshanka]

I believe Gene Pokorny has used one as well, calling it his "CVSM" (Charlie Vernon Survival Mouthpiece).

He may well have replaced this with another mouthpiece by the same nickname, but I seem to recall Gene pulling his "CVSM" out and showing it to me quite a few years ago and it was a Marcinkiewicz-made 'piece.

His mouthpiece was made for him by Larry Minnick for use on his Yorkbrunner for the CSO audition. The thing is a monster and very heavy. It does indeed have "CVSM" stamped on the side wall. I tried it for a week or two and have heard Gene play it. Quite the interesting piece!

Pete

Yeah, it was something Gene pulled out of Tommy's mouthpiece drawer, and Norm Pearson made some copies while he was working at Marcinkiewicz back in the day. Mine's one of those...

...D

[poomshanka]

From the written descriptions, these sound rather similar to what Ellis Wean designed with his Tru-View acrylic mouthpieces (the undercut notion).

Oddly enough, I have one of Ellis' mouthpieces too, circa 1987 or so. It's absolutely DEADLY in the low register. In fact, both my CVSM and Tru-Vu pieces are with Joe Murphy right now. He's going to have them keyed into his CNC machine, then punch them out in stainless for me. I've always liked Ellis' mouthpieces, but have wondered what they'd be like made in something other than acrylic. Now I guess I'll find out!!

...D

[TonyZ]

Not to sound highly overstated and obvious, but any mouthpiece will play pedals. While some may make it easier, most gigs would not allow for changing mouthpieces for different notes. Flame on, but we know it's true!!

Keep practicing!
TZ

[Kevin Hendrick]

... any mouthpiece will play pedals. While some may make it easier, most gigs would not allow for changing mouthpieces for different notes.

That's true -- I've played down into the pedal range on a Bach 30E, but it is a lot easier on a 7 ...

[JB]

From the written descriptions, these sound rather similar to what Ellis Wean designed with his Tru-View acrylic mouthpieces (the undercut notion).

Oddly enough, I have one of Ellis' mouthpieces too, circa 1987 or so. It's absolutely DEADLY in the low register. In fact, both my CVSM and Tru-Vu pieces are with Joe Murphy right now. He's going to have them keyed into his CNC machine, then punch them out in stainless for me. I've always liked Ellis' mouthpieces, but have wondered what they'd be like made in something other than acrylic. Now I guess I'll find out!!

...D

I've tried a variety of his pieces, but could never quite get past the material they were constructed from. Keep us posted on the stainless result -- I'd be very interested in your impressions and comparison to the original.

What's the ballpark cost on getting one in stainless steel?

[Dylan King]

The G&W Bayamo is a monster on the pedal tones. Not so shabby on it's way up either.

[Bandmaster]

The G&W Bayamo is a monster on the pedal tones. Not so shabby on it's way up either.

I totally agree! But I also find, at least with me, the horn makes more difference. Some horns produce pedals notes easier than others. I have fooled around with the same mouthpieces on many different horns and the the mouthpiece is not the most important factor. But with my Bayamo (and the others too ) I can get down to double pedal F quite easily ( I am a BBb horn kind of guy). Since the original poster talked about the notes in terms of ledger lines, that would be 5 spaces below low Bb, or 7 ledger lines plus a space below the staff.

[Anterux]

When I first came to this forum I couldnt play pedal tones.

Very much with your help I can now play a great extention for my needs.

In a BBb I can play from the pedal G (GGG?) to an octave higher then Bb above the staf.

And I can do this with any mouthpiece I have. From the Bayamo to Denis Wick 5L

The Bayamo is a bit easier in low range. but I cant go lower with it. Its just easier and better deeper sound down there.

I find the tuba to be more important then the moutpiece.

And with pratice you will do it on any mouthpiece or in any good tuba.

My 2cents

Antero

[imperialbari]

I don't think one shall select mouthppieces for special ranges. The mouthpieces allowing me to go very low are the same, which allow me to go very high, if I practise responsibly.

I need wide and deep mouthpieces for everything I play, but I once heard a flugelhorn player displaying a downright amazing pedal register. Huge sound, in tune, well controlled.

I asked about his mouthpiece: Bach 10C, which is a fairly narrow and shallow piece.

Some can do everything on small mouthpieces, some need larger ones.

It is all a matter of lips, lungs, tradition, and schooling.

Yes tradition is a factor. For years I had struggled with doing true lip trills under the guidance of good teachers. But I didn't get it right until I joined a new band. The cornet soloist did a warm up with lip trills. Hearing that just once made me understand how-to immediately.

Klaus

[corbasse]

I can do a pretty good job of "demonstrating" all of the brass instruments. I am weakest on French horn. In order to play a C below middle C on the French horn, I "need" a mouthpiece with a wide embouchure - minimum (as an example) Schilke #31 rim...

...but good French horn players do not require extra-wide embouchure mouthpieces to play this C - nor even the C below that, and I believe this is the point.

Haha! Indeed, I've got exactly the opposite I can get down to, and well below, a pedal C (=sounding low F) on french horn with a 16.2 mm Farkas MDC, but on tuba I'm struggling for the same notes on a 32.5 Helleberg The embouchure mechanics are very different..

[MaryAnn]

You're right, corbasse! I can play below a pedal C on my Lawson cup too, but the tuba range is now lower by quite a bit. Give yourself about six months on tuba and you should have the pedals. It's all about loosening up. Then, of course, you'll find your high horn range in the doldrums, and will have to find the way to switch back and forth so they both work.
I've realized, however, that I'll never be able to play both loud and low on a tuba....I just don't have the lung size. I sound pretty damn good above middle C, though!
MA

[poomshanka]

The one I played was designed by Ellis Wean. It was metal not acrylic though.

Had you played one of Ellis' mouthpieces in acrylic as well? If so, how would compare the acoustical properties of the two materials?

...Dave

[poomshanka]

I have played one of Ellis' tru-vu mouthpieces though it was quite a different design from the undercut mouthpiece as I remember. I didn't pay much attention to the difference as there was such a large amount of time between the two. Ellis gave me the tru-vu to try in combination with a strobe light and mirrors so that I could see how my lips vibrate as I play. It's difficult to watch and not laugh/keep playing.

Yes, it *is* quite a horrific sight! Some things just weren't meant to be seen.



The design of his "Tru-Vu" mouthpieces was quite different from the custom pieces he actually used. When did he turn one for you in metal?

...Dave

[GC]

I get pretty good results with a Rudy Meinl 10.