Help with 1291 valves.

[Dylan King]

There should be valve guides that fit the valves into the casing. Look into the casing for a tiny canal, and align the plastic (or metal) valve guide in that canal.

If the valve doesn't fit, you must acquit.

I'm not a great fan of these 1291 tubas. I played two of them and wasn't at all impressed. With the sound or the craftmanship. If you are truly having trouble with those valves, send it back for another.

[DaTubaKid]

I just got my 1291 three or four months ago and here's what i do for oiling the valves. I do the standard take out the valve, spread some oil over the valve. Then what I do is put it back in. To sort of work the oil into the slide, I spin the valve until it's spins nice and smooth. Then just keep spinning it until it catches onto that nice little groove in the valve casing. and voila.

[UDELBR]

To sort of work the oil into the slide, I spin the valve until it's spins nice and smooth. Then just keep spinning it until it catches onto that nice little groove in the valve casing. and voila.

You might want to go easy with the 'spinning': The valve is meant to go up & down, not round & round. You'll eventually get friction marks (scoring) and wear that's not consistent with normal use doing what you've described.

[DaTubaKid]

Well, the only reason I spin it so that it spreads the oil more evenly across the valve. It's not any vigorous spinning either. Do you think that'll make a difference?

[8vabasso]

The most important time to oil the valves is when you have just finished playing for the day. This will help to keep the moisture and chemical contaminants from attacking the plating surface of the valves as they dry out. Spinning ones valves inside the casing, unless previously done by a professional repair person, is not usually a good idea. This can promote uneven and pre-mature wear on the valve and it's cylinder. During playing, valves tend to wear un-uniformly due to the specific direction of pressure applied to them by corresponding finger. By rotating the valves inside their casings, this wear can increase distortion to the overall cylinder surface. If sticking or sluggishness persists when the valve is properly seated in the guide channel, a qualified repair expert should be consulted. To put it another way; If I spend 12K on a car and don't like the paint job, it would not be a good idea for me to re-paint it (I have trouble drawing a stick figure). In otherwards being a musician doesn't make me an artist and being an instrumentalist doesn't make me an instrument repairman. My appologies to those out there that truly possess the talent to be all of these.

[Chuck(G)]

I'm going to break from the crowd and opine that giving an oiled piston one two or three turns before finally seating it is not likely to do any harm unless done with sufficient force applied off-axis.

Consider that when valves are manufactured, the casing and piston are machined to be round and perfectly concentric. So, on a new tuba, the piston can be rotated in the casing without harm, at least if the manufacturer's done things right.

Ah, some have said, but as the piston wears, it does so unevenly and therein lies the problem--the piston and casing are no longer perfectly concentric. Bad things will happen if you try to spin the piston in the casing.

To which I would reply that wear removes material, not adds it. So, unless the piston or casing have been deformed by abuse, the piston should still rotate within the casing, albeit with a bit more play due to wear.

Turning a piston a few times to spread oil appears to me to be a worthwhile practice. At least it's no worse than the toothpaste or lava soap I've heard advocated here to improve the fit of a piston in a casing.

[UDELBR]

I'm going to break from the crowd and opine that giving an oiled piston one two or three turns before finally seating it is not likely to do any harm unless done with sufficient force applied off-axis.

I think where we differ here is the amount of spinning involved. DaTubaKid wrote

I spin the valve until it's spins nice and smooth. Then just keep spinning it

Sounds like more than the "two or three turns" you describe.

[Chuck(G)]

"Spin" is one of those words that defies precision. While dancing, if I spin my partner, I'm in for a lot of trouble if more than one or two revolutions are involved.

On the other hand, a plane's propeller spins at several hundred revolutions per minute.
---------------
Speaking of valve plating, why aren't valves plated with chromium? I've got an old cornet from the 50's with chrome plated pistons and they look like new--not a scratch on them.

[Tubaryan12]

I have a question: Does anyone have a story about someone that shorted the life of their valves by spinning them in the casings in a horn they have had since it was new?

[ZACH336]

I have a question: Does anyone have a story about someone that shorted the live of their valves by spinning them in the casings in a horn they have had since it was new?

I play rotary valves exclusively now but I honestly don't see how spining the piston can be so terrible for the piston. I could see mabye on a 95 year old eb with soft ancient valvesthat's been beat the hell out of over the years, but a new 1291 with strong new pistons? By spinning the valve you are creating an even layer of oil between the piston and the casing to prevent friction lol I don't get it.

[DaTubaKid]

This whole spinning thing is turning out to be an interesting discussion. I usually don't sit there and count how many times I spin the valve (and even then, it's not free-fly spinning), but I would say that the valve, at most, would undertake 4 or 5 revolutions. I usually only stop when starts to move smoothly, which doesn't take very long at all.

[adam0408]

well in this case I trust miraphone. In the enclosed instruction manual that I got with my horn and actually read, it said to never spin the piston. So that is what your manufacturer thinks.

[Chuck(G)]

well in this case I trust miraphone. In the enclosed instruction manual that I got with my horn and actually read, it said to never spin the piston. So that is what your manufacturer thinks.

They probably also say to use Miraphone valve oil and Miraphone slide grease. Again, I think it depends on what's meant by "spinning".

[Ryan_Beucke]

I believe that the reason you're told not to spin the valves is because it wil create tiny micro grooves going sideways instead of up and down on the piston (if you don't believe me, look at your valves and see the tons of tiny lines going vertically on the piston...that's from normal playing), which might cause a little hang up. I really don't think the turning a couple times to oil the valves as mentioned will make a big deal though, I do that too.

[UDELBR]

well in this case I trust miraphone. In the enclosed instruction manual that I got with my horn and actually read, it said to never spin the piston. So that is what your manufacturer thinks.

I was also told this at the Meinl Weston (Melton) plant.

Ya'll are more than welcome to spin your valves though.

[Alan Baer]

Hi All,
here is a good mix that will save some bread and time..
For years I've used nothing but lamp oil.....as valve oil.
I tend to use the stuff that says Ultra Pure. Lamplight Farms brand is very common. I've used both with and without paraffin. The paraffin is not going to build up on the valves...
But, if you feel better not using wax, there is the Ultra Pure without. I put it on the valve and move it in and out round and round to cover it. THEN. Mobil 1 5W30. This is a synthetic oil for cars. 1... one.... 1.... one.. drop per valve.
that's one drop!!! unless you like slow valves, or work all the time in the sun. Move the valve in the same fashion and then button it up. What this does is to increase the surface tension on the oil. the valve rides on the oil, or moisture that's on the valve, much like hydroplaning. With most valves there are small imperfections or high spots that will break the surface tension of the oil. By increasing the viscosity of the oil you help retain the riding surface and allow the valve to move freely.
I put the Mobil 1 in and old valve oil bottle or bottle with a needle. BTW, this works great in warm weather climates. Remember, in the hot sun valve oil is gone in about 20 minutes. Would you run you car without oil?
good luck,
Alan Baer

[Dan Schultz]

It's been my experience with piston valves that have superfine finishes (such as some of the Yamaha horns) tend to cause more problems than those surface finishes that have a bit of cross-hatching to hold the lubricants. Rotating pistons to distribute the lubricant is not going to cause any problems as long as care is taken not to bump the valve guide across the guide groove.

[MaryAnn]

well, two things. I thought paraffin was the British name for lamp oil/kerosene.
And, wow, 1291 pistons is a lot of pistons...it must take DAYS to spin all of those.
MA

[Chuck(G)]

Hi All,here is a good mix that will save some bread and time..
For years I've used nothing but lamp oil.....as valve oil.
I tend to use the stuff that says Ultra Pure. Lamplight Farms brand is very common. I've used both with and without paraffin. The paraffin is not going to build up on the valves...
But, if you feel better not using wax, there is the Ultra Pure without. I put it on the valve and move it in and out round and round to cover it. THEN. Mobil 1 5W30.
Alan Baer

...rather than using an automotive product, you can simply add a bit of key oil (as used on woodwind instruments) to the lamp oil. Works fine.