New Yamaha 621 plays really sharp, (?)

[Chriss2760]

I have a Yamaha 621 in BBb that I bought new last Spring. My issue is that this horn plays really sharp across the entire range. I have to pull the main slide out to it's extreme position to even get close to the right pitch. Has anyone else had this problem, and if so, what did you do to correct it?

[MikeMason]

if you're a fairly inexperienced player,it could actually be a CC...just the first thing that comes to mind-not meant to be an insult...

[cornholio]

A high school student in a nearby college town bought a German-made signature model CC tuba from one of the handful of big tuba outlets. The instrument is so hopelessly sharp as to be paint-peelingly so. His teachers and colleagues have suffered this for the last four years. Recently, one of his teachers - an internationally recognized artist and clinician who has a commercially released solo c.d. - OFFERED TO PAY to have a new longer mouthpipe custom made for the instrument, in order that I might be played in tune with everyone else. The student, however, was convinced at the time of purchase that the instrument plays in tune just fine with the proper (quote) air speed.

My advice to you is to have other known players play your well warmed-up instrument with an electronic tuner. If your diagnosis bears out, lengthening the instrument or returning it to the seller may be in order.

[numbnutstubist]

Yamaha Tubas generally play sharp. That's just the way it is.

Good luck.

[windshieldbug]

I have copied down "The standard tuning of our instruments lies at 443 Hertz, which is standard for Europe. We also make instruments tuned to 440 Hertz for the United States." I think that was a Miraphone quote, but it may be something like that...

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Yamaha Tubas generally play sharp. That's just the way it is.

I don't agree with this statement....I have a Yamaha tuba, a euphonium, and a bass trombone....all with good pitch.

[numbnutstubist]

First of all, the Euph and Bass trombone don't matter because I'm talkin' tuba. I have no experience with their Bass Trombones or their Euphs, so I'm not going to make a comment about those. I'd only make myself look completely foolish.

HOWEVER, I will say that I have only played on one Yamaha tuba that did not seem to lean on the sharp of the pitch scale, and that was Jim Self's YFB-822 prototype. I have played about two dozen Yamaha horns (including my main solo horn, the 621s) and all but the prototype had to have slides pulled a great deal for good pitch and still, some notes needed to be lipped down. I love their sound, don't get me wrong, or I wouldn't have one of them for a main instrument.

But, Yamaha Tubas DO generally play sharp. Yes, it is possible to pull slides to get them to play in tune, but Bloke is right in that it is a LONG pull on a short slide. One really good thing I'll say for 'em is that at least the 621's have the short slide as the main spit culperate, huh? *S* Anyway, I'm just commenting on my experience.

Have fun, guys.

[Rick Denney]

Yamaha Tubas generally play sharp. That's just the way it is.

Good luck.

I've heard plenty of tuba players who have Yamahas that are indeed consistently sharp.

But my 621 F tuba is not sharp. It's right on the money with perhaps 3/4" of main slide showing.

And I have played several 621 BBb tubas, and while I think they are stuffy I've never noticed that they played sharp.

But, again, those who have say next to me with 321 BBb tubas have all tended to play sharp.

Rick "noting many possible explanations that have nothing to do with the marque" Denney

[Lars Trawen]

It most likely depends on the size of the mouthpiece. I guess you use a very small mouthpiece.
A big mouthpiece with big volume adds the cup volume (and length) to the leadpipe. On the other hand, a small mouthpiece increases the pitch and you have to pull the main tune slide correspondingly to get the tuba in tune.
Between my biggest and smallest mouthpiece it differs about two inches pull on the tuning slide to get the tuba in the same pitch.
Good luck,
Lars

[Paul S]

My 621 F plays quite sharp. My tuning slide is out about 2/3 if its pull, which is nearly 3" at times. It varies by as much as a half of an inch from day to day, because of temperature/humidity/player issues.

While I shudder at the term "mouthpiece sensitive" this tuba does seem to be wildly affected by various mouthpieces. ............
---sigh---

This is my experience on my 1989 621F as well. A PT-50 actually allows me to keep the tuning slide in and has a great scale but not exactly with the sound for an F tuba in my mind. The Bobo solo (bowl) and Canadian Brass Replica (shallow funnel) offer near perfect intonation (makes sense considering the history of the horn) but tend to require the main slide out to a good extreme and do not open the horn up as nicely as a mouthpiece I am trying now.

[Matt G]

But my 621 F tuba is not sharp. It's right on the money with perhaps 3/4" of main slide showing.

On almost any Yamaha tuba I've ever played owned, this is like the preset or default. 3/4" pull gets you very close, but...

While I shudder at the term "mouthpiece sensitive" this tuba does seem to be wildly affected by various mouthpieces. The pitch comes down to a normal level but with a whacked-out scale when using one of my very big mouthpieces.

You have to use a medium sized bowl/cup on all Yamaha tuba's, it seems. My YCB-822 was right on with a Shilke HII, and the YFB-621 was best with a Bach 18 (???). Most of the other Yamaha tubas seem to fall into this, but only in my general observation.

Bass-bones and euph's are totally different, however.

[Chriss2760]

Thanks for all the thoughts guys. I guess that I just need to spend more time with the tuner and my mouthpieces. (Funny, I hadn't thought that the mp would affect the pitch so dramatically.) It will be interesting to see how Paul's new mp affects the pitch. I have been using the Canadian Brass Replica, a Miraphone C4 and a Conn Helleberg 7S, with pretty much similar results.
Anyway, thanks for your help.

[Chriss2760]

Bass-bones and euph's are totally different, however.[/quote]

Well ya, one has a slide!

[Lew]

I have copied down "The standard tuning of our instruments lies at 443 Hertz, which is standard for Europe. We also make instruments tuned to 440 Hertz for the United States." I think that was a Miraphone quote, but it may be something like that...

That is a Mirafone quote, and to add to that, they offer to Fit it to A440 for free minus shipping. This would be worth contacting Yamaha about.

Tuned to 440 for whom? In my experience different players have very different intonation tendencies on the same horn with the same mouthpiece.

I've always thought that tuning to 443 with the slide all the way in would be better than 440, as long as there was enough slide to pull. I would rather have the standard tuning slide position pulled at least a half inch. That way there is room to push it in if need be to adjust for temperature.

[windshieldbug]

I would rather have the standard tuning slide position pulled at least a half inch. That way there is room to push it in if need be to adjust for temperature.

And I've always assumed that a horn tuned for 440 would be mean exactly that... meaning that a horn tuned for 443 would have to go out even further for 440

[Paul S]

This is my experience on my 1989 621F as well. A PT-50 actually allows me to keep the tuning slide in and has a great scale but not exactly with the sound for an F tuba in my mind. The Bobo solo (bowl) and Canadian Brass Replica (shallow funnel) offer near perfect intonation (makes sense considering the history of the horn) but tend to require the main slide out to a good extreme and do not open the horn up as nicely as a mouthpiece I am trying now.

Which mouthpiece are you trying with your YFB621?

Mauro,

I am using both my standard SSH mouthpiece and a LOUD LM-15 double cup with an SSH screw rim on my 621F. http://www.angus1.com/ssh



Chriss2760 e-mailed me last night stating that using the standard SSH mouthpiece on his 621CC seems to have helped his intonation problem there now as well.

[Chriss2760]

Ok. A follow-up and closure on this thread: I bought one of Paul Sidey's new mouthpieces, the SSH (Stainless Steel Helleberg) and the pitch problem was resolved. I did work with my tuner and all of the other mouthpieces I own, (10), and found that most of them play higher in pitch, two of them notably so. The shank of the SSH is slightly smaller than the others, (fits a bit further into the horn,) and that may explain the difference in pitch. Normally I would be reluctant to commit to one horn/mouthpiece combo, but the SSH is just what I like in a mp: Flat rim with a nice, sharp inner corner, deep cup, open bore and ample diameter. I like it a lot! This mp makes the big jumps necessary when you are transposing across registers, is strong in the bottom end with out going flat up top, and really speaks when you want to "bring it." I don't feel at all constrained with it.
Thanks for the input, gentlemen. The replies got me thinking along the right path. And thanks, Paul. This mouthpiece is just what I've been looking for.
Chris.

[Wilco]

The shank of the SSH is slightly smaller than the others, (fits a bit further into the horn,) and that may explain the difference in pitch.
[snip]
This mp makes the big jumps necessary when you are transposing across registers, is strong in the bottom end with out going flat up top, and really speaks when you want to "bring it." I don't feel at all constrained with it.

In my experience it allways makes a difference how far a mpc fits into the receiver. Generally. Further in: better slotting, quick response, a more centered tone. Further out: better flexibillity, wider tone, slower response.
I like my mira 186 best with the mpc pretty far out....

[Donn]

In my experience it allways makes a difference how far a mpc fits into the receiver. Generally. Further in: better slotting, quick response, a more centered tone. Further out: better flexibillity, wider tone, slower response.

That's intriguing. Grasping for some physical explanation, I'm thinking a shank that goes farther in, must be a looser fit with the receiver at the tip -- larger gap around shank at the bore exit -- which would do ... something to the acoustics, I guess.

I commonly wrap a shank in a bit of thin plastic film, because it makes for a more positive seal and I hate it when my mouthpiece falls out. Might be interesting to add a little more bulk there and see if I can tell the difference. Can't vary the exit diameter difference that way, though, so I guess according to my theory I won't hear much difference.

[Paul S]

Ok. A follow-up and closure on this thread: I bought one of Paul Sidey's new mouthpieces, the SSH (Stainless Steel Helleberg) and the pitch problem was resolved. ..................... Normally I would be reluctant to commit to one horn/mouthpiece combo, but the SSH is just what I like in a mp: Flat rim with a nice, sharp inner corner, deep cup, open bore and ample diameter. I like it a lot! This mp makes the big jumps necessary when you are transposing across registers, is strong in the bottom end with out going flat up top, and really speaks when you want to "bring it." I don't feel at all constrained with it.
Thanks for the input, gentlemen. The replies got me thinking along the right path. And thanks, Paul. This mouthpiece is just what I've been looking for.
Chris.

Chris,

Thank you for the vote of confidence with the purchase and also with sharing your comments here. I appreciate both very much!

Paul