for opera tubists Pagliacci

[jsswadley]

Is Pagliacci by Leoncavallo a tuba or a cimbasso part? The editor Sonzogno has tuba marked on the part, but many other parts are marked as tuba by authors who could not have known the instrument, specifically Bellini and Donizetti. If you've played the part on tuba were there any balamce and/or too much volume problems? (apart from the usual conductor carping). Thanks, John

[Chuck Jackson]

Tuba.

[imperialbari]

Is Pagliacci by Leoncavallo a tuba or a cimbasso part? The editor Sonzogno has tuba marked on the part, but many other parts are marked as tuba by authors who could not have known the instrument, specifically Bellini and Donizetti. If you've played the part on tuba were there any balamce and/or too much volume problems? (apart from the usual conductor carping). Thanks, John

Maybe tuba, but what did the Italians mean a tuba to be in the golden years of Italian opera from Verdi through Puccini?

I have seen sources telling about discussions between composers, among them Verdi, and opera directors striving to develop a standard instrumentation for the big operas, so that the opera houses could avoid hiring all sorts of extra musicians.

The trombone section was 3 valve trombones. The discussion was whether the bass of the section should be a tuba or a cimbasso. The cimbasso was a 3 or 4 valve bass trombone in F, Eb, or BBb.

I have no primary sources on 19th century Italian tubas, but Toscanini was there, when things happened in the later decades of the 19th century. He stands behind this reconstruction of a Verdi tuba:



An instrument, which for me mostly resembles an upright cimbasso.

The full text to be found at:

http://www.orsi-wind-instruments.it/tuba.htm

I have studied some of Verdi’s scores. Among them the opening of Nabucco for 3 trombones and cimbasso. If I had written a 4 part setting that way, my college teachers had protested, because it is not at true four part setting.

In sections of Aida Verdi uses the 3 trombone/1 cimbasso section in a fashion, which I have seen nowhere else.

The 2nd trombone and the cimbasso double the bass line in octaves. Pretty normal. It is also normal, that the 1st trombone plays harmony notes above the 2nd trombone. What really surprises me is, that the 3rd trombone plays harmony notes between the double basslines of the 2nd trombone and the cimbasso.

This reply doesn’t address your question directly. But it still has a main point: The Italian opera composers imagined a much lighter and brighter low brass sound, than we are used to hear from the modern orchestras of today.

Klaus

[Dan Satterwhite]

Excellent article! Who knew that the three valve bell-front Besson euphonium that I had to play in high school has a historic performance practice application today? My opinion is that one can play most any 19th-early 20th century Italian opera on a modern cimbasso and be well within acceptable performance practice. Given the letter from Verdi to Ricordi, I would say that it's pretty well proven that Verdi did not approve of the tuba. However, sometimes it's a different matter to convince a personnel manager or conductor of that fact. I'm playing a concert of all sorts of overtures this week, and the tuba player in the orchestra is using my cimbasso for Verdi's La Forza del Destino Overture. The conductor and the rest of the brass section have all expressed their approval. Next week, we're doing a piece that I've never run across, Rossini's Siege of Corinth Overture, which is scored for four trombones. The cimbasso will be perfect for that part, too.

Back to the original question, John, I would say play cimbasso if you have access to one. Hope all is well,

Dan

[imperialbari]

The Gourlay link as well as the posting by Dan represent most interesting and competent writing. However I somehow end up feeling, that their conclusion is just about the same as mine: the bass line of the brass section shall not be played on a fattish sounding instrument, when it comes to the Verdi through Puccini opera repertory.

I don’t own a cimbasso. Still I wouldn’t take neither my Besson 981 Eb nor my York Master BBb, should I be invited to play in an Italian opera (which will not happen). I rather would take my 1978 Boosey & Hawkes bass trombone in G and D (maybe retune it to G and C) or my Kühnl & Hoyer helicon-shaped valved bass trombone in Eb.

I love serious musicology and I love discussing it, but I also love to reset the proportions with a bit of humour. Please allow me to refer to one of my postings on the old TubeNet:

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jan2002 ... 80533.html

Klaus

[jsswadley]

Thanks for your answers and special thanks to Mauro for the link to that fascinating article. There is of course no doubt that Verdi wanted four trombones in his orchestra and that Puccini followed suit (except for Manon Lescaut, which is marked tuba). More interesting are the minor composers who were influenced by Wagner, in this case Leoncavallo. I would also like to know about Catalani, Franchetti and Smareglia just to name a few. I actually only have a straight four-valve Czech F trombone rather than a cimbasso, but this modest instrument has worked out a lot better than the tuba for the Verdi-Puccini parts we've played. I was actually disappointed when a conductor wanted tuba for the Verdi Requiem and he spent a great deal of his time telling the trombone section and me to play quieter. John

[Dan Satterwhite]

I've been disappointed with Verdi's Requiem as well. The writing is EXACTLY like the writing in some of his later operas (like La Traviata), yet the part says tuba because the most commonly performed edition is a German one. That's just as bad as playing the German edition of La Gazza Ladra Overture, which has three trombones AND tuba. Quite the low brass section for a piece premiered in 1817, with just one trombone part.

[MikeMason]

hey! that erroneous edition of La Gazza got me a nice gig one time...

[DavidJMills]

A follow up . we're playing the requiem this week. I'm using my 45slp with laskey 28h. The Ricordi edition score calls for ophecleide. And as stated in the gourlay article verdi doesn't write below B natural.Some portions of passages I am transferring down the octave, sorry giuseppi, especially to follow the double bass writing, but also to juice some chords.DMills,Charlotte

[UDELBR]

I've done Pagliacci (and also the Verdi requiem) on cimbasso. Works great!