Adding a fifth valve

[cjk]

Let's say someone aquired a pretty decent 6/4 CC tuba that only had a four valve front action valve block.

Let's say Harold did.

Let's add that the horn were made by a very respected manufacturer of tubas with some historical significance - not this specific horn, but others like it made by the same manufacturer.

So, it's a York?

What do you guys think about adding a fifth rotor to this horn to make it a bit more usable from a player's perspective?

So do you guys think I can sell this thing for more if it's got a fifth valve??

[cjk]

It depends on the player.

There will be no in tune low F made just by mashing buttons and low low C# will be absent unless played as a false tone.

Lot's of guys "get by" more than just fine on 4 valve CCs.

If the horn's a Holton 6/4 go ahead and add the fifth. Most I've seen for sale already have one. I would think it'd sell for less without. If it's a Conn, York, or Buescher, I wouldn't bother adding a valve since I see lots fewer of those for sale.

[MikeMason]

my take: for an aspiring orchestral pro,you need every possible advantage to stand a ghost of a chance.for most of the rest of us,i've never encountered a low Db in any paying gig(mabye once in a wind ensemble piece in college,not paying,of course).it really depends on the intonation of a specific horn.can you adjust slides to meet intonation needs?how bad do you want to play a real(not false tone)Db? i,for the first time own a 4valve CC and it's not the nightmare i always believed it would be.I think you can get some real deals on 4 valve CC's that are passed over by other shoppers.and to me,my gigging is like a small business-overhead matters.just one perspective...

[Bandmaster]

OK, just for the sake of argument, what if we change the original question just slightly... state it EXACTLY the same, but instead of a CC 6/4 tuba it is a BBb 6/4 tuba. Would you add the 5th valve? This is for those of us that resist the urge to change pitch.... Is a BBb horn with a 5th valve more "valuable" and/or more "functional"? Inquiring minds want to know?????

[tubeast]

I guess that REALLY depends on what type of music you´re playing. Normal community band literature usually has Contra-F as lowest note (I mean the one several ledger lines below the staff). However, right now I´m subbing in a band down the road, and I´m supposed to take it down an octave most of the time (they have one BBb and 3 F players and wanted some additional monstering going on), which will be a Subcontra Ab once, and all kinds of Contra-Db, -Eb, -Gb and the likes, the last three of which require the 5th valve on my CC-tuba.
(Gb with 4+2 is sharp beyond my slide-pulling range, while 2+3+5 is right in tune effortlessly).

Down there, between Contra-F and Subcontra-Bb, a fifth valve sure would come in handy on a BBb tuba.

[Lew]

OK, just for the sake of argument, what if we change the original question just slightly... state it EXACTLY the same, but instead of a CC 6/4 tuba it is a BBb 6/4 tuba. Would you add the 5th valve? This is for those of us that resist the urge to change pitch.... Is a BBb horn with a 5th valve more "valuable" and/or more "functional"? Inquiring minds want to know?????

My vote is no, especially if it is a historic horn of some kind. I have been playing BBb tuba in various bands since about 1970 and have never encountered anything below low Eb that wasn't optional in anything I have played. The Eb plays fine with 124. I can't think of a single note where I thought I would have liked to have a 5th valve. I even owned a VMI 3302 at one point, and found that I never used the 5th valve, even though I was looking for opportunities to do so.

A 5th valve on a BBb is more valuable, in that it will sell for more than a 4 valve, but from what I've seen the incremental value of a 5th valve on used BBb horns is less than the extra cost for the fifth valve new. The incremental functionality of a 5th valve on a BBb tuba is marginal at best IMHO.

[sc_curtis]

4v 6/4 BBb? Cut it to CC, add a fifth valve!!!

Isn't that what everyone does anyway?

[Bandmaster]

4v 6/4 BBb? Cut it to CC, add a fifth valve!!!

Isn't that what everyone does anyway?

My point was that some of us perfer BBb to CC. Since I don't do much orchestral work... in fact I have never had the opportunity to play in an orchestra... WHY would I want to risk a really good playing horn by cutting it? After all, if I don't play in an orchestra, what would be the advantage? I played a CC for one year in college 30 years ago and I felt no real advantage back then either. It didn't make me sound any better....

But, since my Holton is all in pieces at Dan Oberloh's shop, I figure now might be the time to ask for an opinion. After he puts it all back together it would be a little late (expense) to change my mind...

[Bill Troiano]

I've owned several CC tubas over the years. My first was a 1972 Miraphone 186 4U (4 valves) that my dad bought me new while I was a college student. I wanted and ordered a 5 valve 186, but they were so back ordered, after almost a year, I settled for a 4 valve 186. My teacher and anyone who played my tuba thought that it played better than any 5 valve 186. Years later, I bought a Hirsbrunner 4 valve piston tuba with the tuning slide in the leadpipe (HB 1P, I think it was). Knowing that I liked my Miraphone 4 valve tuba, and knowing the HB was a good deal as a demo instrument, I bought it even though it had 4 valves. Everyone who played it remarked at how free-blowing it was and how it responded better than the 5 valve version. I thought so too. I was playing in the now deceased Symphony of Long Island at the time. There were a few times when I felt a 5th valve would have helped for low F's, but I managed without it and nobody ever complained. And, I did play a low C# by lipping up a pedal C. I don't think I played one since. Years later, I owned a Kalison DS model that I thought was stuffy. Tom McCreedy told me he removed the fifth valve from his DS and it played much better. Jay Whitaker recently removed the 5th valve from his 52J and claims that the horn plays much better. I'm considering trying this on my 52J.
Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but does a 4 valve tuba play better than its 5 valve counterpart? I know that is difficult to determine as horns of the same model can just be better than others of the same model. Jay concluded that his tuba played better when the 5th valve was removed. Don Butterfield used a 3 valve tuba because he felt the 4th valve added stuffiness to the sound. He had push rods to manipulate his slides to adjust pitch. Harvey played his whole career playing many styles of music, including orchestra, on a 4 valve Conn.
If most of your playing is in an orchestra or if you do a lot of low playing, I could see the desire to use a 5 valve CC. It's possible, though, that you might have a better playing instrument if you play a 4 valve tuba. If you are spending much of your playing time in the cash register (middle register) and lower middle register, the need for a 5th valve is almost nonexistent. Manipulating slides should take care of the pitch concerns when they arise. Perhaps, if you find a good 4 valve tuba, you'll have a freer-blowing horn with superior response and tone than a 5 valver. For those of you who are considering adding a 5th valve, I would strongly consider if you really need it. I'm not talking about tuba worth $$$ here. Adding the valve, I suspect, would make the horn play differently and not as well as it did before, but you'd have a better chance of playing low f's in tune and playing a low C#. I guess that is my point as I ramble. I don't claim to be any kind of tuba technician as many on this board are. I'm just making an observation.

[sc_curtis]

Wow, I've been quoted twice (2 times more than what I thought worthy)!!!

I guess my sarcasm didn't come through the computer as I was hoping (it hardly ever does...)

MY point was to echo some sentiments I have heard before: why should all of the BAT BBb's be cut to a CC? Bloke suggests that it gives new life to old, bad-responding tubas. That is a valid point. But if the tuba in question is a fantastic tuba, with really great response, intonation, and sound, why mess with it at all?

(Even if it is a stinky BBb) <------NOTE: SARCASM

IMO, if it possesses the qualities that we all admire and adore, you shouldn't touch anything, and let it be.

[Lew]

...

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but does a 4 valve tuba play better than its 5 valve counterpart? I know that is difficult to determine as horns of the same model can just be better than others of the same model. Jay concluded that his tuba played better when the 5th valve was removed. Don Butterfield used a 3 valve tuba because he felt the 4th valve added stuffiness to the sound. He had push rods to manipulate his slides to adjust pitch. Harvey played his whole career playing many styles of music, including orchestra, on a 4 valve Conn.

...

It's possible, though, that you might have a better playing instrument if you play a 4 valve tuba. If you are spending much of your playing time in the cash register (middle register) and lower middle register, the need for a 5th valve is almost nonexistent. Manipulating slides should take care of the pitch concerns when they arise. Perhaps, if you find a good 4 valve tuba, you'll have a freer-blowing horn with superior response and tone than a 5 valver. For those of you who are considering adding a 5th valve, I would strongly consider if you really need it. I'm not talking about tuba worth $$$ here. Adding the valve, I suspect, would make the horn play differently and not as well as it did before, but you'd have a better chance of playing low f's in tune and playing a low C#. I guess that is my point as I ramble. I don't claim to be any kind of tuba technician as many on this board are. I'm just making an observation.

I wouldn't make as broad a generalization, but my limited experience matches yours, although on BBb tubas, not CCs. I spent some time with a 3301 and really liked the way that it played, but didn't have the money to buy it at the time. Later I found a 3302 for a good price and bought it sight unseen. It didn't play nearly as well as the 3301 that I had tried and I eventually sold it. Of course there are other factors than the 5th valve that could have impacted playing characteristics in this case. Each individual tuba is different, even of the exact same model, yet in my experience in this one case, the 4 valve model had much better response than the 5 valve model. I have also played on a 5 valve BBb Miraphone 1291 and thought that it played very well, but didn't have a 4 valve version with which to compare it.

As I said before, I see no need for a 5th valve on a BBb tuba. I expect that the negatives are likely to outweigh the benefits. Especially in the case of your Holton, of which you clearly already love the playing characteristics, I would definitely NOT spend the money.

[dmmorris]

I wouldn’t do it! A 5th-valve on a BBb tuba just doesn’t get used too much.

I have the absurd luxury of owning a ‘70’s, 4/4 B&S, from-the-factory, 6-valve BBb (flat whole step & flat half step). On the rare occasion that I get to play those low notes, and …..I remember which valves to push to invoke the “specialâ€

[Art Hovey]

I prefer a 4-valve BBb tuba. But if I were to add a 5th valve to any instrument I would put it in the 4th valve tubing rather than "in-line", as is usually done. Ideally, it would be removable so that it would only be installed when needed.

[Rick Denney]

But if the tuba in question is a fantastic tuba, with really great response, intonation, and sound, why mess with it at all?

That happens very rarely. If the tuba is that good as a BBb, then it's too expensive to be worth cutting.

Consider the cost of converting an instrument to C. You'll have to overhaul the instrument, make the conversion, add the extra valve, and apply a new finish. With many, you'll have to replace the valve block. A great BBb tuba, even in so-so condition, will sell for more than $4000, and when you add the cost of the above, you have a cut tuba that will not sell for the price it must fetch to pay you back for all of the above.

Cutting makes the most sense for tubas that are otherwise unsellable, where the valve block is ruined and must be replaced anyway, and where the outer branches (what Joe is calling the main bugle) are particularly useful in a CC for one reason or another.

So, if the instrument is good enough as a BBb to fetch more than about $2000, it isn't in danger of being cut unless someone just wants to do it to their own horn and don't care what it costs.

Rick "whose BBb Holton might have made a great C but it was worth too much as a BBb to make it worth it" Denney