F tuba blues - the completely different beast

[smurphius]

I've been working at playing the F tuba in the university setting now for about 8 months, and still I am often frusterated with that darn thing. I practice consistently for consistency, and work very hard to get the concept of F tuba sound in my head so that I can replicate that great sound of the masters, and where I can get the sound going, I am still all over the place with the thing. My CC tuba playing is very comfortable for me right now, and I really, really, really enjoy playing CC. I have several things I'd love to work on with CC but all of my time has to go to that darn F as to keep from embarrassing myself in public performance.

How long has it taken any of you guys to make that plunge down the F tuba road? I'm somehow seeking some encouragement in that. Haha. Don't fail me now TubeNet!! LoL.

Feel free to share any stories you have in learning F. I'd value them greatly.

[joh_tuba]

In my experience it takes atleast 1 1/2 years to get truly comfortable with and learn any NEW horn no matter the key. I predict steady growth and progress for you for atleast another ten months.

I know you didn't specifically ask for it but might I suggest that you spend some time reflecting on HOW you use your practice time. A good semi structured daily routine that focuses on the fundamentals long term will likely lead to insights on both horns that can help fuel your growth.

When I'm learning a new horn I *really* like to spend a lot of time just doing very very very basic lip slurs, scales, and simple melodies in multiple octaves. A little Rochut 15vb might give you some insight into what the F tuba needs from you that you aren't yet consistantly giving it. In turn those insights might change your CC tuba approach which in turn might fuel yet more growth on the F tuba.

In other words, ask not what your tuba can do for you but what you can do for your tuba.

Good luck! We all feel like it's never going to come together at some point. Somehow it always work out in the end.

[TubaRay]

In other words, ask not what your tuba can do for you but what you can do for your tuba.

That's a quote from John F. Kentuba, is it not?

[WoodSheddin]

I've been working at playing the F tuba in the university setting now for about 8 months, and still I am often frusterated with that darn thing.

Sounds very very very typical to me. I actually picked up F tuba much quicker than CC tuba. But Eb tuba took me forever and never really clicked.

Sounds like you are doing the right things and have good priorities. Keep plugging away at F, but you are keeping it honest on the bread and butter CC tuba.

[joshwirt]

Having started my F tuba studies on more forgiving instruments (Yamaha 621 and then 822), it was easy to get used to the Meinl 45-SLP.....great low range with a nice big German sound.

But I wasn't completely sold on it and spent many years searching for a rotary F that had that sound and wasn't impossible to play. I found a vintage B&S that is a monster instrument with a fantastic scale and an awesome low end.....with the right mouthpiece and air speed.

I think the key for me was to learn how to slow the air speed and finesse the low end....something that a lot of players won't/can't do and end up hating German F's because 'I can't play a low C like on the Yamaha'.

I see that you are using a PT-50 on your CC and then a Bobo on the F. I'd see if you can try a slightly deeper mouthpiece for the Meinl F....I love the Laskey 30C on my B&S F since I'm already using the 30H on my Yorkbrunner. You might find a mouthpiece closer to the PT-50 works better for you. Just remember, your real concept of sound is in your head....your body will adjust to please the ears.

Like others have said, keep plugging away at it....it will come. I've spent the better part of this past year off my F as I was mainly playing the EEb while living in the UK. Now that I'm back in the States, I'm having to double my efforts to get back up to speed. Lots of time playing my CC etudes on F.....Snedecor and Blazevich are just a few suggestions. Be patient and work through these...it's difficult, but it WILL pay off!

Good luck!
Josh

[MartyNeilan]

Hey Matt, hope the 2145 is still treating you well. You are spoiled by that horn because of how easy it plays

Yeah, a "traditional" rotary F is a very different animal. One exercise that can help with problem notes, like low C, is as follows:
At a comfortable forte, play a 3rd partial C then low C, tonguing both and holding the low C. (Think quarter note and then dotted half for the rhythm.) Then take a breath and play B and then low C, same as above. Continue with A then low C. You see the pattern - you are playing a descending C Major scale but playing a low C and holding it after each note.

You can also do the same thing backwards, playing the C first and then the next upward note of the scale. This really helps getting used to "funky" notes like low C or B or whatever feels different on your horn.

This approach also works for solidifying low range notes on a CC.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Almost all F tubas have shitty intonation. Good luck.

I'm running out to get one today !

That is a compelling sales "pitch", isn't it?

[Glaucon]

Let's not forget that your contrabass should sound HUGE, and the bigger it does, the more you get to play your bass tuba like a bass tuba (as opposed to a glorified euphonium). A really good point brought up by discotuba is that I've found that the more I work on CC, the better I get at F...and the more I work on F, the better my big dog gets. It's great to realize what our big horn IS by playing it a lot, but (imVho) it's just as important to realize what it is not by beginning to recognise what a bass tuba is truly better suited for. Furthermore, working on things like intonation problems as they present themselves on your F makes your intonation better on CC, etc. Keep truckin' away at it...you may end up a lot better than you think

[DonnieMac]

My trip is this: first I do a good warmup on the CC Rudi. Play a couple of licks and then grab the F tuba, a piston Hirs, and finish up the practice session. The transition is not too bad and the basic core sound carries through from the CC to the F. The nicest F tuba I played was a MW, 5 rotors. A good German sound.

[smurphius]

Another issue I find myself with in this pursuit of F tuba glory, is my preference to sound. I am a hard working contrabass tuba player who enjoy a very rich, dark sound, a wide range from pedal E up to a consistent G above middle C. It's fun to play, easy to move around on, and provides me a wide array of challenges that I absolutely love. It's just a gorgeous sound.

Whereas, I enjoy hearing people play F tuba well, I'm not sure I like pursuing it myself. It's just not the sound I'm accustomed to hearing, or reaching for. Granted my school's F tuba is a tiny, rotor German horn, and I'm sure I could find something of a more happy medium between it and my MW 2145, but without that desire to get the sound, I place a mental road block for myself.

Maybe I'm a foolish die hard, but I'm just not in love with the F tuba sound, coming from anyone's bell. Obviously, this presents a problem for me, a student of tuba performance. There's no other tuba to play some of this literature on.

How does one find a compassion for the F tuba sound? I like my bread and butter. Carbohydrates are my comfort food!

[joshwirt]

Spend some time REALLY listening to the greats on German F's....older Bobo recordings, Michael Lind, older Perantoni, Gene Pokorny, and Floyd Cooley to name a few. These guys have very different sounds, but each amazing in its own way. Find the sound you most agree with and latch on to it. Let your musical passion drive the sound that you are trying to make come out of the bell!

The German F tuba is a beast unto itself. I think of all the instruments in our arsenal, this one takes the most care and attention. Granted, we will spend most of our time in professional settings playing larger, contrabass tubas (CC or BBb), the German F requires special attention and detail.

Besides, there's always the EEb option out there......

[JCradler]

You're probably right about many folks' range being similar on different keyed tubas. from personal experience, my second CC was super easy to play above the staff. But it was the weight of the sound that drew me to the F tuba. Most F's in this country are used for solo playing, or in tuba euph ensemble/ quartet situations. In our quartet, the F is a vital gap bridger between the euphs and the CC. Eb tuba would also work, I suppose, but not one that is trying to be a CC.
Tunes that help build your chops and confidence on the F are easy to find. Winston Morris did a transcription of a Handel Sonata(#6, I think) that lies in the key of- F! How convenient. Thomas Stevens, "Variations in Olden Style" is also accessible. As for the "low C disease" , it drove me to the E-flat tuba for about 6 years, but last year I found myself wanting an F to play, I just missed it too much, bad low C's or not. What they can do in and above the staff is why folks play them, it's about agility, lightness of sound and the "flavor" that these things have. Stick with it, try other F tubas and you'll find your voice with one, I suspect.

[windshieldbug]

Almost all F tubas have shitty intonation. Good luck.

I'm running out to get one today !

That is a compelling sales "pitch", isn't it?

That IS a key point

[imperialbari]

Many Grumpy Old Men believe that the F tuba has "permission" to sound halfway between the sound of a large CC tuba and the sound of a large euphonium.

One of the problems of the original poster may be, that he tries to emulate the sound of allegedly great "masters". He maybe would have an easier fate on the bass tuba, if he tried to establish his own imagination of the bass tuba sound and then followed his own ears from there.

Maybe the F isn’t the right bass tuba size for him. I went directly for a fairly large Eb and haven’t regretted that, even if it takes some hard work to obtain the elegant aspects of bass tuba playing.

When Joe Says, that he may run for an F tuba (we all know, that he already has one), then it actually may be true these days. But then the F tubas of Joe’S aren’t just old BS. They are old B&S in the one and only true six-pack version.

Klaus

PS: I think it was the owner of this forum, who once wrote, that he didn’t primarily let himself inspire from recordings of even the best tubists, but rather from fine string players. I fully endorse that point of view.

However one of the repertory items we share with the string fellows is the series of Bach’s cello suites. I have done quite a bit of wood-shedding on these on the bass trombone (which is the reason I never have touched them that much on neither euph nor on bass tuba). It is fairly difficult to do the fast low range stuff on bassbone, but one can do it perfectly in tune.

A cello professor from my country recorded these suites a few years ago. Technique and speed were optimal, but the intonation made me sick. And that professor certainly is no bad player, when it comes to the more romantic stuff.

Yesterday I heard one of the Bach movements played by a South-East-Asian cello genius. It was equally much out of tune.

Can alleged geniuses allow themselves to be out of tune just because they have acquired a standing in the general public?

I don’t think it is accepted within the violin world. And maybe tubists rather should concentrate on playing slow and beautifully, but then doing it well in tune.

[tubatooter1940]

I love my 3-banger Eb tuba because I found any out-of tune notes can be tuned after the fact in a decent recording studio. Playing a horn with six valves will flat slow you down.

[imperialbari]

I love my 3-banger Eb tuba because I found any out-of tune notes can be tuned after the fact in a decent recording studio. Playing a horn with six valves will flat slow you down.

Happy you, who can take along a correctional facility for any street and/or live job. We still are a few ones having to rely on instant musicality.

Klaus

[MikeMason]

bloke,you ruin everything...

[smurphius]

Ruin, yes, but in such high class an utter hilarity.

I appreciate all of the different viewpoints (not to mention minor wanderings) regarding the F tuba thing.

I have tried a few Eb tubas before, and though being completely unaware as to what the fingers are (beyond the fact that Eb and Bb are open, lol), I really, really seemed to like it a lot more than this F. Might be a route I take when I finally take that plunge into buying my own.

[imperialbari]

correctional facility

Klaus,

Your English and Americanese is better than 99% of those who are on this bbs, but occasionally your translations are interesting...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2 ... acility%22

bloke "...and, perhaps, meant to be that way "

The problem for a non-English-by-birth person is to be aware of all the connotations embedded in the usage of various terms.

Some kind Englishman from one of the horn groups made me aware about "backside" implicating something less pleasant than "bagside" which linguistically is its exact Danish equivalent.

I don’t translate, when I write in English. There normally is no Danish draft, neither mentally, on paper, nor on disk. Actually I hate to do translation work. And the only situation, where I really accept to do so is on the music lists. And then it almost invariably is from German to English, as so few native English speakers have any knowledge of German.

Concerning the terms chosen by me and commented by you, I could have chosen a wording like "(pitch) adjusting tool", but I at will applied "correctional facility", because I in some way find, that a player not taking full and immediate responsibility of his intonation belongs there.

And then: If we dig down into semantics "adjusting tool" and "correctional facility" are basically very close. Only the connotations differ quite a bit.

Klaus

[tubatooter1940]

Klaus would put me in jail!