So, what makes a proffessional musician, a proffessional?

[Tom Mason]

Professional........

Never lets anything be an excuse for playing correctly.

I played a gig with a rather large name in the sax world (no, it wasn't craftsman or murray), a couple of years ago. Did the one rehearsal and the concert while passing my first kidney stone.

Tom Mason

[TubaRay]

Pro: One whose objective is to never hear the word "Tuba" escape the maestro's lips.

I can recall a particular episode in my own not-too-distant past when I was actually involved in a traffic accident on the way to an (important) rehearsal. (My car was sideswiped by another vehicle.) I had built in about twenty or so extra minutes of "extra" travelling time (in addition to the normal amount for that commute, and also the amount of time I knew it would take to enter the building and prepare to play).

I determined that the other driver was a responsible person, collected/exchanged information, mutually agreed that - if the police were called - they wouldn't arrive for hours, cut-and-pulled on stuff hanging from my car to make it driveable, BACKED DOWN THE SHOULDER OF THE RAMP FROM ONE FREEWAY TO ANOTHER (as a horrible - and visually hidden - traffic jam on the subsequent freeway was, for the most part, the real cause of the accident), went an alternate (much longer) way on the original freeway, and STILL arrived at that rehearsal (in my seat) with two minutes to spare.

bloke "professional?"

IMPRESSIVE!!!

[windshieldbug]

[Leland]

If a player's on tour, he knows it.

Probably the best definition-per-sentence length ratio here.

Pro: One whose objective is to never hear the word "Tuba" escape the maestro's lips.

Oh, the conductor can say "Tuba" all he wants, as long as it's always followed by something like, "... that was excellent."

[quinterbourne]

Well, it may a little tough, in some aspects, to compare musicans and doctors/lawyers since we are so much different. Keep in mind that anybody could be the principal tuba of the CSO... but someone who wants to be a doctor or lawyer needs to go through specific schooling programs and testing. There are some ways to connect, though.

Perhaps we could consider the term "professional" as being a verb instead of a noun. Hence the term "professional performance" implies that all the musicians are being paid (often a certain amount determined by the union). So one could say you are a professional when you are performing for money (of a certain amount).

On the other hand, when a lawyer does pro bono work, isn't that still considered a professional quality service? The lawyer doing pro bono work isn't an amateur. This is an interesting concept to wrap one's head around. If a full time orchestral musician does a gig for no money, they are still a professional, and will most likely give a professional quality performance.

How many of you have gone to the doctor, a "professional" doctor, and have been treated poorly? The doctor may have acted unprofessionally. Does this stip him of this "professional" status? If a full time orchestral musician screws up royally in a performance, he/she is still a professional.

In many ways, I like to associate ones attitude with their status of being "amateur" or "professional." I guess this is just one factor in determining whether or not someone is a professional. When I am (and everyone else in the ensemble) is being paid a reasonable amount of money, then people tend to act professionally. The ensemble also tends to have a professional performance. So, at that moment, I would consider all of them professional musicians (even though many of them may have "day jobs" outside the music field).

Also, if people perform for no money, but still treat it as if they were (which is 99% of the time not the case) and act and perform professionally, give a professional performance... I would consider them to all be professionals.

As I said earlier, it all comes down to personal opinion. I must stress though that people need to act professionally when they are being paid. If you don't, you won't be asked back. Competition is for fierce in our business.

[quinterbourne]

Yes, I'm sure some doctors and lawyers think that they didn't really need the schooling that was required... but it was required (as opposed to recommended, expected or preferred).

Yes, I suppose there is "testing" for the spots in the orchestra, the audition. You are correct on that point (keep in mind the "test" for the orchestra can only have one person pass, unlike the BAR exam, where it depends on how well you do).

To expand on that... orchestral auditions take the best person. There is not necessarily a "standard" set, just the best person gets in (although I guess they could choose nobody and just play mozart all year). Theoretically, someone who is not really capable and unsuited to take the position could get it (due to luck, and based on how everyone else played).

The BAR exam is different though - either you pass or you fail. It doesn't depend on how well other people do... if you can meet the standard they have set, you are allowed to practice law.

As far as schooling is concerned... to be a lawyer it is required. To be a member of an orchestra, it is recommended, maybe expeced, but not necessary. I'm sure they like seeing the resume, but ultimately they pick the best player for the job (even if all the player has is a highschool education).

My argument is, there aren't any STANDARDS set in stone for the music industry (besides those that natually develop due to competition). If someone got a job with the CSO and royally screws up, there is no "music license" to be taken away.

very funny

[TubaRay]

My argument is, there aren't any STANDARDS set in stone for the music industry (besides those that natually develop due to competition). If someone got a job with the CSO and royally screws up, there is no "music license" to be taken away.

Speaking of tests, here's a math test: What percentage of doctors/lawyers (who might cut us open...or plea to keep us out of jail) graduated in the bottom halves of their graduating classes?

Oh! Me! Me! Almost half?

[Carroll]

But they ALL passed (and continue to pass) Board Examinations.

[TubaRay]

But they ALL passed (and continue to pass) Board Examinations.

...and the CSO tuba player stood (and continues to stand) up to the close scrutiny of thousands of patrons, fans, jaw-yappers, and internet-bloggers.

And stand tall, I might add.

[Leland]

But they ALL passed (and continue to pass) Board Examinations.

And the ones that didn't, ... well, they didn't. I know of one personally.

[tubatooter1940]

I've been reading these attempts to define a pro. For whatever reason, can't we just tell when we're in the presence of the real deal? Isn't it obvious (however subjective) when we stumble across one?

[Chuck Jackson]

Drum Roll Please:


The dumbest thread in TubeNet history goes to:

What does it take to be a professional.

Yes ladies and gentleman, many precious hours were spent digging into what it takes to be a professional and the vote is in: NOBODY KNOWS. The judges were deadlocked with last years entry: Silver or Laquer, with this years entry winning because it had no redeeming value whatsoever. The Albanian judge did score high marks for the wag who retorted :
"Spelling", but he was quickly shot and killed by the Macedonian judge and an ethnic cleansing war broke out. High marks were given also to the number of times the CSO Principal Tuba was mentioned without mentioning his name.

Chuck"who noticed a posting from Mr. Pokorny, his first and probably last after reading this rather dense diatriabe which really has rivaled "Seinfeld" in it's intent"Jackson

[Rick Denney]

Perhaps we could consider the term "professional" as being a verb instead of a noun. Hence the term "professional performance" implies that all the musicians are being paid (often a certain amount determined by the union).

If you define "professional" in terms of a person who declares himself to be available for hire, then you get rid of all these inconsistencies you report. To apply for that CSO gig, you have to declare yourself as being available for hire. That alone, of course, won't get you in (or make you successful in any way), but it's the first step and it's enough to make you a professional.

Some professions require licensing before one can declare their availability for hire. But it's that declaration that is important. Your lawyer doing pro bono work still has to be a member of the bar, exclusive of getting paid, because one is required by law to be a member of the bar before declaring himself available for hire. Professions that are (correctly or not) linked to public safety and welfare usually require certain standards to be met as a matter of licensing, and those standards are demonstrated through various combinations of schooling, testing and experience. Those standards are presumed to be minimally sufficient to ensure competence (or to provide a recourse in case of incompetence). Excellence is another matter, of course, just as being a successful professional ain't the same thing as being a professional.

When you link the term "professional" to the result of being hired, as with pay or any particular standard of performance, then you get all tangled up. It's the offering of hired services that counts.

Rick "who thinks its easier to be a doctor or lawyer than a successful professional tuba player" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Yes, at rehearsal yesterday evening the conductor said "Tuba, give it all you like" - now that I like hearing

I dunno. If I were a professional, I would probably interpret that as me not giving enough right before he said it.

And I wonder how many times one hears the word "excellent" in reference to a tuba lick, however well played. Our licks just aren't that demanding. Unless the maestro is a tuba player, of course. Most of the time, though, the tuba is participating in the ensemble's sound, and thus the best compliment is "Ensemble, you are sounding excellent." Every time I've heard the word "excellent" in reference to what I've done, it's because I corrected something the conductor previously complained about.

But what do I know?

And, Chuck, debating trivialities like this is better than throwing rocks out in the street. And it's DEFINITELY better than shoveling snow off the driveway, even with that BAS.

Rick "a duffer" Denney

[MikeMason]

Chuck,any post that provokes this much thought is not a bad thing.Tubenet: place on the web to exchange ideas loosely concerning the tuba among enthusiasts of the tuba.

[Leland]

And I wonder how many times one hears the word "excellent" in reference to a tuba lick, however well played.

Not many, and that's why it sticks out whenever it happens.

The last notable time it happened with me (well, my section, anyway) was when we were assembling an arrangement of Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony in full ensemble. We had some fairly quick licks in one segment, and the director said, "Contras... wow!"

I'm actually proud of that moment, because when we got the parts a couple weeks earlier, I was the one running sectionals. I drilled the snot out of those licks, bringing our less-talented players up to speed and getting some sort of clarity from the whole section.

I absolutely hate being told to play out more (although I don't mind being unleashed ). I never want to hear negative comments relating to the quality of our execution. I welcome advice about style, and I won't turn down the occasional "That's awesome" outburst.

The way I see it, it's my job to have my "poop in a group" before entering rehearsal. As long as that happens, any comments headed my way are only small adjustments.

[Chuck Jackson]

Ok, so maybe my acerbic sarcasm was too much, but, really, no one can define a professional. It's like trying to define the color red to a blind man. Professional is something to everybody, no matter how many people you put in a room or on a internet site, the definition is impossible because no two people will ever agree on it. Just decide what your parameters are for being a professional and live them and the hell with everyone else.

Chuck"thinking of Rick today when he was in shorts mowing the lawn and trimming the hedges before going to a HOLIDAY (don't get me started on that one) Concert tonight"Jackson

[Dean]

I am a lurker by nature. Mostly because I will not contribute to a topic until I think I have something useful to say... This topic, I have read bits and pieces of, but came to the conclusion that it would be resolved rather quickly.... and now I see it has 7 pages of posts.

7 pages of post to define a word?? Why not just open a dictionary?

From www.dictionary.com :

pro·fes·sion·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
2. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
3. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
4. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
5. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.


Now, since the topic creator asked what "a professional" is, that means the noun definition of the word.

There it is. Read it with joy in your hearts....


99% of word definitions are not open for debate. People need to accept this when they use the English language, or any language. Thats part of the agreement if we want to effectively communicate.

[Kevin Hendrick]

99% of word definitions are not open for debate. People need to accept this when they use the English language, or any language. Thats part of the agreement if we want to effectively communicate.

That's a mighty big if, isn't it?

[quinterbourne]

I agree that 7 pages is quite a bit too much and that this thing has gotten a little out of hand. This is partially my fault - however I do have a particular interest in human behavior, as in how people act under different environments. I am still intrigued how differently some people act at a performance/rehearsal when they know they'll be getting money (in the same way kids act much different right before christmas, so they may optimize their loot). It's understandable why they act differently, but it is that they act differently to such a high degree is what interests me.

My argument is that someone wasn't looking for the definition of the word. If someone asked... "What is Love?" or if your child asked you "What is sex?"... would you tell them to get a dictionary a look it up? Dictionaries don't tell you everything, and in many cases nothing within the context of your inquiry. Clearly, if someone asked "What is a book?" then we could just point them to a dictionary, but I think professional may be closer to love than it is to book (in terms of needing more than just a dictionary to explain).

Maybe you should have read some more of the entries, but there were multiple dictionary definitions of the word given. Clearly, this was not enough for some people (in the same way the dictionary definition of love would be if someone asked about it).

Perhaps this post has gone beyond the topic creator's intentions, keep in mind this happens all the time here, and I still think much of the discussion is not completely useless. Some people find it interesting, some people do not. I completely understand why someone would hate this topic like the plague. To be blunt: The topic being here, and being discussed, isn't hurting you. All you have to do is not read it. Just because somebody posted something in it again, does not require you to read it. This is what is called "freedom of information." Any and all information should be made available to the people, and if you don't care for it... don't access it.

99% of word definitions are not open for debate. People need to accept this when they use the English language, or any language. Thats part of the agreement if we want to effectively communicate.

Just because a word has been defined in a dictionary does not mean that it is what it is. Different words have different meanings to different people, and we should respect that. Nobody is debating the dictionary definition of a professional. What we are doing is discussing the meaning of being a professional, as it applies to the music industry.