Helicon playing position

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:30 pm

Hey, Bloke -- can you help this guy?

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:25 pm

Hard to say, but there aren't a lot of options. It will go under your right arm and over your left shoulder, and the leadpipe runs toward your mouth. I guess you should try to roll it around until its suits your hand better, and then see if the leadpipe bit can be moved to reach your mouth from there.

My Amati helicon is like the Cerveny F. I haven't noticed this problem, but I do have to sort of pick the thing up a little to bring the mouthpiece into an ideal playing position.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:47 pm

I have helicons in both Eb and BBb. I can't vouch for the two helicons you mentioned because I have not played either of them. However, it has been my experience that the way a sousa/helicon 'fits' is the position and location of the leadpipe. The leadpipe I use on my helicons is custom-made. I've heard many people complain that the leadpipe on most new sousas are waaaay too high. I guess when we get older, our necks get shorter! Anyway, for what it's worth... I could not play either of my helicons if I had to use a conventional 'off the shelf' leadpipe.

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:45 pm

The length of your arm has a lot to do with it. Many instruments (including your Cerveny helicon) seem to be made for people with very short arms. Because my arms are long, many rotary tubas are uncomfortable for me because they force me to bend my wrist downward like a Fender bass player. To see a fine illustration of the problem, look at photos of Harvey Phillips with his comfortable old Conn and compare them with photos of Pat Sheridan playing his Besson 983. Notice the difference in hand positions.

Ulli · Post by **Ulli** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:46 am

I own some helicons- and the Eb Lignatone (Amati, Cerveny) shows the same problem: It's unplayabel. When I turned for comfortably valve-handling, it is impossible to reach the mpc.
My other helicons are very comfortable.
Ulli

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:42 am

Cerveny is about the only company that makes a decent helicon currently. Unfortunately that leaves three options:
1) deal with the Cerveny as is
2) get a custom neck
3) find an antique, which can really open up a can of worms.

Conn did make helicons along side sousaphones for awhile. If you can find one, the pictures I've seen indicate it may be similar to their souzys for playing position.

Dutch · Post by **Dutch** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:15 pm

hello Riton,

I share your preference for helicons, at least the looks of them.
I think in Europe they should take the place that is currently taken by sousaphones, but I doubt we will ever see that happen. Even the Russians use sousaphones in their military bands. Maybe the quality of the helicons that are currently manufactured is a reason for the fact they are scarce. More than that, they do not seem to be designed for transport.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:42 pm

Dutch wrote:Maybe the quality of the helicons that are currently manufactured is a reason for the fact they are scarce.

I think the quality of currently manufactured helicons is remarkably good, if people who will buy one new are as scarce as I think they are. Maybe there's more of a market in Eastern Europe? In the US there's none (we buy them, but not new.)
It's a shame. At least in my experience, a helicon is much easier to carry around - of course it helps that it's about half the weight of my sousaphone, but it's also much more stable, can't topple over.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:37 am

Donn wrote:My Amati helicon is like the Cerveny F. I haven't noticed this problem, ...

Indeed, I compared with my Conn 40K sousaphone, while standing in front of a mirror, and my wrist is only slightly bent with the Conn -- and even straighter with the Amati. It looks identical to the current Cerveny F except for the valve keys. I'm 6 foot 2 inches (1.88m), wear 35 or 36 sleeve. So, I don't know. If anyone isn't liking their Cerveny helicons, I guess you have to send them to me, I will look after them like they were my own.

Ulli · Post by **Ulli** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:34 am

Donn wrote: If anyone isn't liking their Cerveny helicons, I guess you have to send them to me...

Send 700 EUR plus shipping costs from Germany, and the Lignatone (trademark from Cerveny) 4v Eb Kaiser- (45 cm bell) -helicon is yours

Ulli

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:20 pm

The description is certainly interesting. I hope you will post a picture! Does it form a complete circle behind you, like a BBb helicon would, or does it double back in front the way the Cerveny F does, with only a brace completing the circle? The former configuration would make a tight fit, maybe accounting for the awkward position.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:43 pm

A Conn 40K sousaphone in its case is a d****d heavy thing to schlep several flights of stairs. Be it up or be it down. Actually such monsters should have been delivered with a Schlepporello.

But the helicons are worse. Aside from the few ones with detachable bells (Joe S, Mark Rubin, both complaining case problems) they are very unfriendly towards themselves in doorways.

When lining up marching band formations every neighbouring instrument is endangered.

Slicing the keywork off a clarinet? No problem.

Flattening the tuning slide of a trombone down to being airtight in the bad fashion? No problem.

Scattering the glasses off anybody? No problem.

US helicons could be called sousaphones with straight bells.

Some European helicons have the same body pattern, but with rotary valves.

However most European helicons are variants of the Herculesophone patented by Schediwy of Odessa in Ukraine. Even the promotion engraving reveals an uncomfortable right hand position:

Ainâ€™t exactly short in tubas and sousas, 3 of each. My helicon, actually a circular (full circle) 3 valve bass trombone in Eb, is so tight on my (im-)modest body, that I have to manipulate the pistons with my left hand.

Might work with German youth fanfare bands, but would it work in general with TubeNetâ€™ters, where everyone is above average according to

viewtopic.php?p=92429#92429

And then we should never forget, that the term of helicon is just a misspelling for Hell-in-Conn.

Sven from Stockholm earlier this month presented his 3+2 F helicon, which is very well built. But then it doesnâ€™t play convincingly.

The lesson to be learned:

go piston

go tuba and/or sousaphone

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

Ulli · Post by **Ulli** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:06 am

@Riton:
You wrote: The only ones I have tried to play were a Mahillon 3 piston ...
The first sounded horrible like a tin can...

May be, the 3rd valve of the old Belgian and French helicons goes not
1 1/2 but 2 steps down. So also does my 'Van Engelen'. Test it!

Ulli

OldBandsman · Post by **OldBandsman** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:45 am

Ahhh... helicons...
I bought a new Chervney BBb helcon a year ago. Did have to get used to bending my wrist to get fingers on the fourth valve paddle. Liked the sound once I replaced the oversize bumpers so the valves would meet the tubing better ... reduced stuffiness. Liked the quiet valve action.

I marched it on Memorial Day in the right hand column, last row, to keep bell away from kids throwing popcorn. Played lots of notes out of tune. Wish I knew how to put a picture here.

It picks up dings like crazy. I like playing standing up... much better air, and lots of fun wth body english.

But I cannot play it in tune... This band tunes to A=442, I can get most of the open bugle to center the meter needle, but once I get to playing along, needle is + or - 20 most of the time. Alternate fingerings help... C in the staff is good with 1+3, Bnat just below that is good with 2+4. I can manage if the music is slow enough. In short, I'm never gonna be able to use this thing except for once a year outside where pitch doesn't count much.

My gut reaction is to take sledge hammer to it and sell the 16 lbs of brass for scrap. I gotta get rid of it.

Ulli · Post by **Ulli** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:15 am

@old bandsman:
You wrote: My gut reaction is to take sledge hammer to it and sell the 16 lbs of brass for scrap. I gotta get rid of it.

No! Give it as a present to me!

Or trade it fore my 4v Lignatone Kaiser- Helicon...

Ulli

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:56 pm

I'll pay shipping!

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:55 pm

OldBandsman wrote: But I cannot play it in tune... This band tunes to A=442, I can get most of the open bugle to center the meter needle, but once I get to playing along, needle is + or - 20 most of the time. Alternate fingerings help... C in the staff is good with 1+3, Bnat just below that is good with 2+4. I can manage if the music is slow enough. In short, I'm never gonna be able to use this thing except for once a year outside where pitch doesn't count much.

My gut reaction is to take sledge hammer to it and sell the 16 lbs of brass for scrap. I gotta get rid of it.

Of course you should neither scrap nor abandon that helicon.

Some instruments are said to be mouthpiece sensitive. In general I donâ€™t agree upon that statement. But it hardly is a coincidence, that Czech instruments in general come with shallow, but still funnel shaped, mouthpieces with a narrow throat.

Some players are mouthpiece sensitive. I certainly am one of these. I want space and volume for my embouchure to work with.

But as you may have read in another thread, a 135 years old instrument has had me revise my views to a less rigid level.

Try out some mouthpieces. What comes first to my mind is the PT-line numbered higher than 50. They represent exactly, what I dislike, but for the permutation of you and that helicon one of these might be the right thing.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:22 pm

imperialbari wrote:But it hardly is a coincidence, that Czech instruments in general come with shallow, but still funnel shaped, mouthpieces with a narrow throat.

Mine likes a Conn 3, which is more or less a shallow funnel shape - but actually with a very wide throat, 8.5mm by my measurement, to match the wide for F bore of 18mm.

The shallow depth makes a lot of sense for A) an F tuba, and maybe B) the way some Eastern European bass tuba players like to sound. Surely a large bore (20mm) BBb would want a somewhat deeper one.

Flat 5th partial (open D in staff) is sort of predictable, I thought, more amazing when it doesn't happen. As for flat vs. sharp overall, mine is hard to tune sharp because I need the leadpipe fully extended to reach my mouth. A mouthpiece might resolve these problems, or maybe not.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:10 pm

I agree with the Perantucci suggestion. I don't know the model numbers, but they have an "American" series which most people are familiar with, and a "German" series, which do have for the most part the shallower cups.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:32 pm

iiipopes wrote:I agree with the Perantucci suggestion. I don't know the model numbers, but they have an "American" series which most people are familiar with, and a "German" series, which do have for the most part the shallower cups.

Unfortunately though also the rounded cups. My much more limited experience agrees with Klaus, the shallow funnel shape that he says ships with these helicons is better for at least my F. Don't know any specific current models to recommend, though. (And I have not noticed any effect on the flat 5th partial, anyway.)