ballad horn: expanding the tuba/euphonium playing experience

[windshieldbug]

Then again, lots of early mellophones were built in F/Eb/D/C, so you can do much the same thing if you score one of them. I've got a 1925 Buescher 3 piston + 2 rotary mellophone that will do that, and a 1913 3 rotary right hand F/Eb/D/C York.

In F, you can just read the normal horn part in treble clef, and the horn being an octave higher than a "French" horn, it's a lot more accurate. Or crank it down to C, and do as bloke suggests. Either way, you're using a much more friendly mouthpiece than the horn unit!

[imperialbari]

A circular C-baritone?

In Eastern Europe the C-flugelhorn was quite common (I have one). I also have a German oval Kaiserbariton in C. The French made some Saxhorns/euphoniums with a main tuning insert for a C-to-Bb conversion. There have been valve trombones in C.

What were the purposes of these C instruments?

Probably two:

Reading from the hymnbook in church contexts.

Reading over the shoulder of the pianists in dance bands. That was just about the survival reason of the C-melody saxophone (Adolphe Sax built the saxes in a C-F family for orchestral usage and in Bb-Eb for band usage. The C-melody sax is the only, very rare, surviver of the first family).

Today every pro-level player is supposed to be able to read from treble clef concert independently of the pitch of his/hers baritone trough soprano instrument.

The multi-transposing, by valves or slide inserts, mellophones in my eyes only can have had one purpose: being doubling instruments for trumpet players in travelling opera/operetta companies with very reduced ensembles in the pit.

Joe has told about having to get the best out of two or three books, when show tours hit Memphis.

I have seen travelling shows, where the idea of hiring a low brass player had never been considered. One of the pre-synthesizer era pit line-up’s, which I remember, just had piano, violin, clarinet, and trumpet playing the music originally written for a full opera orchestra.

Unions may complain Broadway cutting down the pit manning. But that story is a very old one. Just remember, that WAM premiered Don Juan in Praha with 2 first and 3 second violins.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[jacobg]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... PcY_BID_IT

But this is a piston French Horn, right? not a mellophone as some of the know-it-all ebay questioners asserted?

By the way, Conn made a C soprano sax. Friend of mine has one. Also Rod Baltimore of NYC has one in the window on 48th st.
They also made a C trombone with a change-valve to Bb. Nicknamed the "preacher" model because it was intended for reading from hymnals (I guess for someone to read C treble clef parts who was accustumed to transposing Bb Treble parts on trombone?!)

[imperialbari]

This definitely is a mellophone. The pitch most likely is Eb.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[jacobg]

Whoops, got it confused with this one because of the tilted valves. Gotta be more careful with mellophone id'ing:

[Chuck(G)]

Then again, lots of early mellophones were built in F/Eb/D/C, so you can do much the same thing if you score one of them. I've got a 1925 Buescher 3 piston + 2 rotary mellophone that will do that, and a 1913 3 rotary right hand F/Eb/D/C York.

I take it that the 2 rotaries on the Buescher are like the rotary on my 1929 King mello--meant for changing slide lengths but not for playing. The rotary on the King just changes the main slide between F and Eb--a separate main slide (and valves slides) is used for C.

[windshieldbug]

This definitely is a mellophone. The pitch most likely is Eb.

Klaus is correct on both counts. It's a right hand player, and looks to be too much valve tubing for an F, but not nearly enough for a "French" horn. Conn had pretty much settled down to Eb by the time this was built.

I take it that the 2 rotaries on the Buescher are like the rotary on my 1929 King mello--meant for changing slide lengths but not for playing. The rotary on the King just changes the main slide between F and Eb--a separate main slide (and valves slides) is used for C.

Yes, they are meant for changing the key while you are not playing. Both of the horns I mentioned have to have the valve slides pulled an appropriate length to have a prayer of playing in tune. My York & Sons has nice little key names etched on each slide, along with a line for the correct length.

[Daryl Fletcher]

I've often wondered about old style mellophones and similar French horn-shaped instruments. Are there parts of the world where they are still in common use? Considering that they would probably be a lot easier to play than a real French horn (for young students and community musicians), I wonder why they fell out of favor.

Also, how common are ballad horns?

[imperialbari]

I've often wondered about old style mellophones and similar French horn-shaped instruments. Are there parts of the world where they are still in common use? Considering that they would probably be a lot easier to play than a real French horn (for young students and community musicians), I wonder why they fell out of favor.

Mellophones basically are saxhorns with expanded bells. The bell having mostly a cosmetic purpose, so that they can pass for French horns, which due to their status as orchestral instruments are more prestigious than alto horns.

Having played and owned both types of instruments there is no doubt in my mind: the French horn has by far the largest musical potentials in all respects but for ease of playing. A point of view which I share with most horn players.

Today the mellophone in several variants is used in the marching bands in the US. Almost al variants are right-handed and have pistons. It generally is played by musicians playing French horn during the concert (non-marching) season.

Right-handed mellophones with rotary valves are widely used in German amateur bands. The players play the mellophone in all band contexts. They generally are "surplus" trumpet players taking up the mellophone, because the band is short of real horns. The German euphemism for the mellophone is Konzerthorn, which would be self-translating.

One of my Austrian reference persons, not a diplomat, uses the term of Scheißhaken. A word, which you will find in no dictionary, and which I will not translate. If one has a deeper knowledge of German, the term actually is quite funny.

Also, how common are ballad horns?

I don’t think they ever were very common. Most musicians found it cheaper to learn to transpose from their Bb instruments than to invest in a C instrument with a limited usage.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[windshieldbug]

I've often wondered about old style mellophones and similar French horn-shaped instruments. Are there parts of the world where they are still in common use?

From the current Miraphone wesite:

"Eb-Alto horn, right hand action , Model 36R, Bell diameter 270 mm (10,63 inch), rotary valves, exchangeable valves, nickel silver trimmings, spiral spring system, Bore of valve section 11,4 mm (0,449 inch), brass body, Material of mouthpipe nickel silver, Mouthpiece KH03, lacquered "

[imperialbari]

From the current Miraphone website:

"Eb-Alto horn, right hand action , Model 36R, Bell diameter 270 mm (10,63 inch), rotary valves, exchangeable valves, nickel silver trimmings, spiral spring system, Bore of valve section 11,4 mm (0,449 inch), brass body, Material of mouthpipe nickel silver, Mouthpiece KH03, lacquered "

The funny thing is, that the photo shows a left-handed sample. There are fewer of the south-paw versions, but they are more prestigious to play.

For a player like me, where it doesn’t matter at all, which hand to use in playing (not true when it comes to trombone slides), that standing is pure nonsens.

One of the real big brass idiots in my region was moved from solo cornet to 1st horn in a concert band. He was given a Yamaha mellophone with 3 pistons for the right hand. But to save face and "act" as a real French horn player, he played it with his left hand. Happy ergonomics to him!

I haven’t been kind on the mellophone. But I played one, in Eb, myself through 5 years during my very young years. Even as 1st horn in a local amateur chamber orchestra. It is hard for me to avoid telling, that I learned a lot. Knowledge of repertory and most important: to transpose.

On that Eb Scheißhaken I played parts in G, F, E natural, Eb, D, C, and Bb. Being able to transpose just about any interval and reading all clefs certainly has been a useful tool in many situations, be it in church gigs or in teaching. It didn’t hurt my abilities in score-reading either.

So I am not sure about saying:

To Hell with the mellophone!

or

Hail to the mellophone!

Musicwise certainly the first. As a personal learning tool certainly the last.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[Daryl Fletcher]

Today the mellophone in several variants is used in the marching bands in the US. Almost al variants are right-handed and have pistons. It generally is played by musicians playing French horn during the concert (non-marching) season.

I always thought it was a bit odd that horn players in US bands are generally expected to play one instrument in concert band and then a different instrument with a different mouthpiece, fingerings, etc., in marching band. I wonder how we ever ended up with that tradition. Both my high school and college marching bands used marching mellophones, which I guess is quite typical.

By comparison, it would seem that we have it quite simple when learning to play a tuba in a different key.

Then there are actual marching french horns, which seems like a sensible concept to me, although I don't think they are nearly as common.



__________

Daryl, who often wonders why things are the way they are.

[windshieldbug]

I always thought it was a bit odd that horn players in US bands are generally expected to play one instrument in concert band and then a different instrument with a different mouthpiece, fingerings, etc., in marching band. I wonder how we ever ended up with that tradition

The Eb instruments come from the brass band tradition (US & others), where an altohorn (smaller than a euphonium and pitched in Eb) plays that part. Thus the brass band instruments run in Eb & Bb:

Eb cornet
Bb cornet
Eb alto (English: tenor)
Bb trombone/euphonium
Eb bass
BBb bass

The F horns (which are pitched a 7th lower, but play in the same range) comes from an orchestral tradition, as do all the woodwinds we now use in bands. The woodwinds generally moved outside OK, with the exception of things like the bassoon and oboe. Horn can be hard to manage with any volume, too.

So it isn't just the horn players. Think of the bassoons, and Woody Allen's marching 'cello, too!

[imperialbari]

I always thought it was a bit odd that horn players in US bands are generally expected to play one instrument in concert band and then a different instrument with a different mouthpiece, fingerings, etc., in marching band. I wonder how we ever ended up with that tradition. Both my high school and college marching bands used marching mellophones, which I guess is quite typical.

Part of the reason is the inertia of tradition. As I interpret my sources, the standard alto band instrument in the US was the alto horn right from the pre-Civil War era until sometime around WWII. The shapes have varied:

OTS
Helicon (unbelievable, but I have a such one from Boston represented in my galleries)
Top action pistons straight bell
Front action pistons bell front

The latter probably being the most widespread variant until the horns-for-concerts and mellophones-for-marching trend took over. I cannot deliver hard proof, but my sense for history and economics tell me, that this trend was an expression of the fairly fast recovery of the US economy after WWII. Even bands should be PC and use the more prestigious French horns.

Sadly these are pure hells to march for two reasons: poor balance and a fairly narrow mouthpiece rim. This combination has a very obvious inherited danger: swollen lips and even loose incisors.

I am, or at least was, a multi brass player. No problems with shifting from horn through trombones to tuba. Only the use of trumpet rims spoiled my horn embouchure totally (and that basically is, what is imposed on the poor kids hauled forth and back between horn and mellophone).

So for many years I played my trumpets, cornets, and flugelhorns through my horn mouthpiece via a bunch of adaptors, some homemade. No problems with intonation or sound, but endurance certainly was a problem when playing Eb cornet. Later on I have had a screw rim system made for various underparts fitting my horn rim (18mm aperture, which is quite large).

I play with the old style Einsetzen/inset horn embouchure. Younger players use the Ansetzen/onset embouchure, which together with the much wider rimmed horn mouthpieces available today should make it possible to play marching horns like the Yamaha Bb showed without too many hazards to the embouchure.

And then I will back the point made by Barry Tuckwell: horns played outdoors more are a visual than an aural factor. They hardly can be heard. If I marched a horn, I would fake it except for the very few places, where the horns have important parts. I have played lots of marches and i only have met two important horn solos.

The last time I marched, February 1994 through inner Copenhagen in a Lent carnival demonstration for peace, I was asked to bring my horn.

No way! So I brought my alto trombone. More comfortable for me, and certainly better heard.

By comparison, it would seem that we have it quite simple when learning to play a tuba in a different key.

The only people, who should experience problems with shifting key of tuba, should be those with absolute pitch.

Any educated player knows, that any notation is just a relative indication of a sequence of intervals. If one has a thorough insight in our scale system, going from one pitch to another is a small problem. I don’t have a really stable perfect pitch, and have played instruments in C, B nat, Bb, A, G, F, and Eb. But I never got on friendly terms with CC tubas. I can’t find the open notes.

Daryl, who often wonders why things are the way they are.

Traditional thinking!

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[brendanige]

Is this a ballad horn?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1920s-Y ... 0437253561" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

Could have been, if it were British.

Yet the multi-pitch mellophones playable with trumpet mouthpieces to my knowledge are an American-only phenomenon. With the danger of repeating myself: I see the main purpose for these being the function as horn substitutes. Touring operas with minimal pit orchestras could have a trumpet player covering the most important horn entries by doubling on mellophone. The F-E-EB-D&C pitches bypassing most transposition problems.

Klaus

[brendanige]

So.... What is the difference between a ballad horn and a mellophone in C?

[imperialbari]

So.... What is the difference between a ballad horn and a mellophone in C?

You hardly will find a mellophone built to be played in C only.

I haven’t reread the thread, so maybe more repetitive redundancy:

Trumpets in C have been known in classical contexts in long natural/valveless and since in short valved forms for centuries.

If you find oddities like flugelhorns or oval tenors/baritones in C, then with the purpose of their players reading over the shoulders of pianists in dance halls or organists in churches. France had a tradition of baritones and euphoniums in C & Bb with a Bb insertion for the tuning slide in the leadpipe. C in churches. Bb in bands.

Klaus

[TubadudeCA]

Okay, I have a question about Ballad Horns. Perhaps Bloke, you could answer this? Eric Totman has in a his collection a Bell up model Ballad horn, very cool, but I know that there are also bell down models. Would the player put his hand in the bell of the downward model like a F Horn?