I know many of you guys are really picky about your horns and just about go nuts over small dings and dents. Just about every time I take a horn apart, I find things that really make me think about "what's the perfect" horn. Expensive horns are no exception to what I consider to be shoddy assembly work. In a great many of the cases, I find things that really could have caused problems but probably went totally unoticed by the owner. Here's a picture of a Miraphone 186 that's on my bench right now:
I took the 1st valve slide assembly off to do some repair work to it. Not only were neither of the slide tubes soldered full-circle, there was also a depression 3/8" diameter x 1/16" deep in the body UNDER the brace flange. Were these assembly defects causing problems? Who knows! But... it DOES lend credibility to the statement that "no two horns are alike"! More stuff on my 'project' page at: http://thevillagetinker.com/projects.htm
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker" http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
Tubas are sooooo expensive and pretty complex instruments. I struggle with this conundrum constantly. As I just purchased my own tuba not too long ago, I must say small defects in workmanship and overall fit and finish are sticking out at me more than ever.
Does anybody remember the long conversation about 1291 slides popping out? I sure do, because I have to deal with it on a quite frequent basis.
It seems to me that if we are paying 6,000+ dollars of our hard earned cash for a musical instrument it should have EXTREME attention to detail.... But perhaps this would drive the cost up even farther.... I don't know.
Imagine if you bought a car (similar price range) and you found out that the lugnuts on this particular model loosened over time and the wheels just fell off at random intervals. Any inquiry made into the issue pointed to the fact that you would have to tighten the nuts every time you went out to drive. That would be an unacceptable design flaw. However, it seems that with the 1291 slides slipping out, we just lay back and accept it while this defect causes damage to our horns and our playing.
The idea that no two horns are equal is just as apparent with my experiences. I bought my Miraphone 1291 CC tuba a little under a year ago, and I was worried about the slides popping out, like I had read so much about on here. To this day though, I have never had a a slide fall completely off the horn. I have had my third valve slide fall out about half an inch or so when playing in the lower register, but nothing serious enough to cause alarm. So while Adam's slides have been falling out, mine have been fine, even though we own the same exact model.
I see where you were going with the car example, Adam, but I dont' think it quite fits perfectly. I mean, obviously people are going to be throwing hissy fits if their car is bound to break down in unpredictable ways and they are required to care for it on a daily basis, as you have to do with your horn. But the results are different. When that wheel finally pops off the car, there are lives in danger. Those in the car and arrange the car are suddenly faced with possible death. While I know we all consider our horns our children and want to protect them as much as we can, a slide popping out isn't going to kill us. Not to say we'll be jumping with joy when it pops out, but it's just not the same effect.
Colby
Colby Fahrenbacher
Principal Tuba, Danville Symphony Orchestra
Associate Tuba, Civic Orchestra of Chicago
DaTubaKid wrote:
I see where you were going with the car example, Adam, but I dont' think it quite fits perfectly. I mean, obviously people are going to be throwing hissy fits if their car is bound to break down in unpredictable ways and they are required to care for it on a daily basis, as you have to do with your horn. But the results are different. When that wheel finally pops off the car, there are lives in danger. Those in the car and arrange the car are suddenly faced with possible death. While I know we all consider our horns our children and want to protect them as much as we can, a slide popping out isn't going to kill us. Not to say we'll be jumping with joy when it pops out, but it's just not the same effect.
Colby
yeah I thought about the "lives in danger" thing, but what happens if one of my slides blows off in the middle of an audition. That could potentially psychologically ruin my career with confidence issues and such (I know, worst case scenario) or at the very least cost me some hard earned cash in the form of repair work.
I love my tuba, don't get me wrong, but it is really really really annoying when my slides jump to the floor as if they are trying to commit suicide. (maybe its my playing and my slides are just trying to escape before the whole ship goes down) Obviously this is something you have to experience to truly appreciate.
I bought my tuba more recently than you... perhaps it is a problem specific to a date of manufacturing?
tubamirum wrote:It is a simple job to expand the inner tubes so they are tight.
It's even better if the instrument is made right to begin with.
Usually the tolerance between the inner and outer slide is not a problem at solder joints, it's sloppy workmanship.
Years ago, I received the bell of an instrument owned by one of the big 5 symphony tubists. He removed it and replaced it with another brand. When I examined the solder joint some places a had 3/4" bead of solder and some had none. It definitely leaked air but apparently played well enough that he used the horn anyway.
I wonder how the old Holtons would play if re-assembled to design specs and soldered correctly.
Found another assembly problem today. Beleive me, I don't go looking for this stuff... it's just THERE when I take something apart to fix another problem.
This image shows the poorly trimmed tube ends on a Miraphone 186 #1 rotor circuit. There was a 1/8" gap between the tube ends inside the ferrule. the other tube was trimmed on an angle.
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker" http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
I prefer my tuba naked. The lack of spit and polish makes me feel not-as-bad-as-I-would-have when I put the dents in her that we all put on our horns over time.
Also seems to play a little less "bright", if that makes any sense.
iiipopes wrote:Do I know what my tuba looks like naked? In a word, yes.
I'm not speaking of just the finish on your horn. What I am aluding to is the integrity of every part and solder joint on your horn. There are a lot of variances that cause folks to scratch their heads and wonder why seemingly identical horns don't play the same.
I am of the opinion that the finish of a horn is the least thing to be concerned about when selecting an instrument.... except as a matter of prettyness (is that a word?).
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker" http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
I am also. On my Besson, I've just had the valve block gone completely through, from receiver to tuning slide, and have had an assessment on the branches and bell for the next step after the end of this band season.
On my souzy, last year it was completely gone through, with the top loop of the 1st valve made into a slide for intonation, and an extra water key added on the 3rd valve slide so it did not have to be pulled to dump, along with valve alignment, cleaning, etc.
