Philadelphia Orchestra tuba vacancy

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Philadelphia Orchestra tuba vacancy

Post by scottw »

Just curious---anything new regarding the Philly Orchestra tuba job opening? 8)
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Post by pierre »

They have on their schedule that was printed at the beginning of the season a Tuba/Viola audition in mid-March. I don't know what, if anything, that means in terms of an actual audition, but sounds like we should be brushing up our alto clef chops.
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Post by MaryAnn »

Maybe I should apply? Sounds like my one opportunity to put to use my multi-instrumental mediocricy.

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Philadelphia Orchestra Tuba vacancy

Post by Posaune2 »

Just curious---anything new regarding the Philly Orchestra tuba job opening?


The Philadelphia Orchestra will be continuing their tuba audition in late February by inviting back all semi-finalists and finalists from earlier this year. All of the invited players should be hearing from the orchestra shortly, if they haven't already been notified.

Eric Carlson, 2nd Tbone, Philadelphia Orchestra
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MasterBlaster3000 wrote:Question: If they werent good enough the first time around, whats going to change the second go?
Now that is one of the better questions ever posed on TubeNet. I'd like to hear the answer.
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Philadelphia Orchestra tuba vacancy

Post by Posaune2 »

Question: If they werent good enough the first time around, whats going to change the second go?
Hopefully, given another chance to play, someone will step forward and play their best and win the job. We know that there are a number of really fine players in the pool, but in the last audition, we didn't hear the kind of playing that convinced us to offer the job to anyone.

We faced a similar situation twenty years ago when Blair won the bass trombone job. At the first audition, we wern't completely convinced by anyone. When we heard everyone play the next time (about half a year later) Blair played up to his true ability, and won the job. By taking our time, and giving us and the candidates a chance to "get it right" we hired a truly great player. Our expectation is that eventually someone will play well enough to convince us that we will be happy to work with them for the rest of our careers.

Eric Carlson, 2nd Tbone, Philadelphia Orchestra
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Post by Dan Satterwhite »

I'm waiting for Sean to chime in and say that nobody worked hard enough to win.
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Post by WoodSheddin »

Dan Satterwhite wrote:I'm waiting for Sean to chime in and say that nobody worked hard enough to win.
Nobody worked hard enough to stand out above everyone else.

I can attest to how difficult it is to make a 30+ year commitment to a fellow musician when everyone in the final round plays at nearly the same level. The committee is looking for someone special and if everyone sounds equal in that last round or two then the decision becomes a coin toss.

If someone shows up next time and clearly stands out then they will be offered the position.

Don't shoot the messenger. Raise the bar and be that single individual who clearly outperforms the rest.
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Philadelphia Orchestra tuba vacancy

Post by Posaune2 »

I'll try to answer Bloke's points in order:

<<When a vacancy is first announced and a major orchestra holds auditions, there will be at least five players to show up (or at least apply) who would do fine.>>

That is very likely true. BUT, if the orchestra is to be fair in their hiring, the players must PROVE that they can do the job at the audition. If all we wanted to do was hire a "known quantity" we would be done by now - once we have had an open audition, the music director is allowed to invite anyone he pleases to an invitation only "final" audition.

<<"possible truth: Just like when we are listening to the most carefully-presented recorded performances of the finest players and we find minor flaws, audition committees can do the same - particularly when they aren't in the mood to hire a player (or if the player they really wanted to hire didn't attend the audition)>>

I suppose this could be true. But, in the case of this particular audition, I believe we have heard every strong player who is interested in the position, and we really do want to hire someone. But, it is not fair to anyone to bring them into the position if we have any doubts at all about their playing. If someone is to uproot their life and move to a new job, new city, etc etc, they should have the reasonable expectation that if they can perform consistantly at the same level that they performed at their audition, they will be able to keep their job in the long term.

<<possible truth: The more times a major orchestra holds auditions for a position and rejects all applicants, the more they increase the chances that the next time they hold auditions for the same position very few qualified applicants will apply. (one could google the term "cry wolf", etc.)>>

Orchestras that hold repeated auditions rarely lose qualified applicants, unless the applicants weren't particularly interested in the first place. BUT, orchestras that make a habit of hiring players and then not giving them tenure can have a VERY hard time filling openings once the word gets out. Of the two bad outcomes, (1. Not hiring, 2. Hiring then firing) the second is exponentially worse. That is why we have to be so careful before offering the job.

<<possible truth: If certain influential members of the committee, the music director, or others are wanting some certain someone to serve in a position, sometimes the strategy of "blowing through all available applicants and rejecting them" could work - finally inviting a desired non-applicant for a "trial" and then hiring them. This strategy could, however, also fail - if the desired applicant decides (after behind-the-scenes discussions) to not accept the position after all.>>

As I said above, our contract allows the music director to bring in players for invitation only final auditions. As far as I know, he has no intention of using this clause at this point.

<<probable truth: Virtually no one who successfully auditions plays their excerpts the same way they would play them in orchestral performances. The entire audition process is based on samples of performances that would probably never be recreated.>>

Auditions are a different animal than playing in the orchestra, but in my opinion, the only way to succeed in them is to try to play as closely to the way you would play in the orchestra as possible.

<<probable truth: When a player is actually selected at an open call audition and it gets down to two or three players, it becomes a "beauty contest", as any one of those three could likely do the job equally well, and likely none of the three are playing their audition material they same way they would play it in an orchestral performance.>>

This is just not true. In virtually every audition I have listened to, there have been clear differences between the finalists, and the choice has been easy. In virtually every audition I have listened to, there is a moment during someone's audition where the members of the committee look around at each other with big smiles on their faces, and we all relax because we know we have found "the one". We aren't looking for someone who will just "do the job" - we want someone who will make us, and our audiences smile.

<<probable truth: These days no matter how well someone auditions or could audition, a major orchestra would almost never consider hiring a player unless they have previously held a position in at least a "semi"-major orchestra...in much the same way that universities would almost never consider hiring professors who have not earned (or will not be earning) terminal degrees at other universities - no matter how well other non-degreed persons could have performed those same duties. An exception to this occurred a few years ago when one orchestra absolutely painted itself into a corner by running through all available applicants and then some.

truth: Experience is vitally important. The ability to play well / audition well is not-at-all the entire definition of performing duties with a symphony orchestra.>>

Among the brass players hired by the Philadelphia Orchestra with virtually no prior experience:
Joe Alessi
Chris Martin
Blair Bollinger

If you can really play, orchestras will hire you, regardless of your level of experience.

Eric Carlson, 2nd Tbone, Philadelphia Orchestra
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Re: Philadelphia Orchestra tuba vacancy

Post by WoodSheddin »

Posaune2 wrote:In virtually every audition I have listened to, there have been clear differences between the finalists, and the choice has been easy. In virtually every audition I have listened to, there is a moment during someone's audition where the members of the committee look around at each other with big smiles on their faces, and we all relax because we know we have found "the one". We aren't looking for someone who will just "do the job" - we want someone who will make us, and our audiences smile.
That is my experience in the auditions and competitions I have listened to. The winner is clear cut. When the winner is not clear then doubt sets in as to how to choose someone and the auditions ends up in stalemate.

Play beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Re: Philadelphia Orchestra tuba vacancy

Post by windshieldbug »

Posaune2 wrote: If you can really play, orchestras will hire you, regardless of your level of experience.
But, just like hiring in the non-musical world, past performance is a great indicator of future potential. And if you are still on your way there, nothing will teach you how like experience.
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Post by Posaune2 »

bloke wrote:
Among the brass players hired by the Philadelphia Orchestra with virtually no prior experience:
Joe Alessi
Chris Martin
Blair Bollinger

If you can really play, orchestras will hire you, regardless of your level of experience.

Eric Carlson, 2nd Tbone, Philadelphia Orchestra
Your points are all well-taken and appreciated, and this (quoted above) one does not contradict my statement regarding hiring trends, as the most recent example cited above (unless I'm mistaken) is approximately nine years ago.

Perhaps the trend (not referring to any particular orchestra's audition procedures) I'm about to describe (below) began to occur longer ago that I have observed, but the trend is this:

an "open call" or "resume-filtered open call" with currently-positioned players receiving special invitations accompanied with "by's" to the semi-final round. To me, this shows a strong tendency (again - in the industry, and not in any one particular orchestra) towards preferring to hire experienced players.
I think what is going on is a little different than Bloke's analysis. I think that most orchestras screen by resume, not because of any preference for experienced players, but because it is the only practical way to get the numbers down to what you can feasably listen to.

We invite some players to the semi-finals for two reasons: Professional courtesy, and to save time in the preliminaries. The working assumption is that if someone plays well enough to win and keep a full time tuba job, they are good enough to get past the prelims. However, in many cases here, the eventual winner has been someone who played their way through all the rounds.

If there is a trend in auditions toward more strict screening of resumes, I think it is because with modern digital editing techniques, tapes are useless as a screening tool, and, FAR too many people who haven't a clue are sending in applications for positions. (We had two applications from High School kids for Pete's sake!)

We can't listen to a hundred fifty players, so we have to thin the herd somehow. Experience is the best indicator that we can think of, so we use it. We also allow anyone with no experience to send in references, and in the case of the tuba audition, we invited several players on that basis.

Experienced players get hired by big orchestras because all great players get experience very quickly! The brass players I cited were hired very young. (As were numerous inexperienced players in other sections that I didn't cite) If the Philadelphia Orchestra hadn't hired Joe & Blair & Chris straight out of school, does anyone doubt that they each would have won smaller jobs somewhere else very quickly? Anybody who doesn't have a reasonable amount of quality experience to list on their resume shortly after they get out of school probably isn't good enough to play in a big orchestra.

Eric Carlson, 2nd Tbone, Philadelphia
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Post by Thomas Maurice Booth »

This debate/discussion has been going on for years now. The professionals want to hire the "best" player. The players want to know that they will be given a fair opportunity.

As far as I can tell, the players - including the "best" - have not been given fair opportunities. I think we all agree that a number of people apply for these large positions who have no business trying. But the catch 22 is that a player cannot become the "best" without experience, and cannont gain experience without winning a job, and cannot win a job without the experience.

Additionally, when a qualified, experienced, and simply outstading player does audition, they may be dismissed at the whim of the committee. "Oh, no one played up to standards" they may say. Why then are some of these dismissed candidates given trial opportunities with the orchestra? Hasn't the committee established that they cannot play up to their "godly" level?

Personally, I would love to hear someone be just [/i]slightly[i] more honest about this whole proccess. Maybe so much as a "We would [/i]like[i] for so-and-so to appear at our audition."

The difficulty orchestras are facing is not so much what may be the case, as what may be [/i]percieved[i] to be the case. Whether an orchestra is giving a candidate preferential treatment or not, the apearance of such treatment will do great harm to that organization's reputation, as has been the case with a few we all know of.

On a side note, I wouldn't mind knowing what many of the high-and-mighty professionals are doing to keep their jobs. Seems like with the way our society is operating these days, an archaic organization like an orchestra should be glad that there are so many people trying to get into a declining field. But at the same time, many of them are probably too busy playing "god" to have thought much about it...[/i]
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Post by TubaRay »

bloke wrote:I (for one...and not-at-all, apparently, one of many) believe (as a libertarian-bent / business owner / private property person) that organizations should have the right (without being dictated to by outside controlling organizations nor any other outside pressures) to use whatever method they individually chose to hire talent and other personnel.

........

In summary (of this post only...not in summary of all of my posts in this thread), I don't personally believe that any private organization owes "fairness" nor the "appearance of fairness" to anyone in particular. I believe private organizations should have the right to do and hire as they see fit.
Amen! Amen!! & Amen!!! This is one area where I can agree with you wholeheartedly, Bill.
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Post by windshieldbug »

Thomas Maurice Booth wrote:when a qualified, experienced, and simply outstanding player does audition, they may be dismissed at the whim of the committee. "Oh, no one played up to standards" they may say. Why then are some of these dismissed candidates given trial opportunities with the orchestra? Hasn't the committee established that they cannot play up to their "godly" level?... But at the same time, many of them are probably too busy playing "god" to have thought much about it...
Having been on both sides of the committee process (in a ROPA orchestra), and also both sides of a publicly traded corporation hiring process, I have to say that the orchestra process is FAR MORE FAIR to the applicant, qualified or not.
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Post by anonymous4 »

Doc wrote:Anybody win the damned thing yet?
Audition is sometime in February
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Post by tuba_bloke »

I would say Tony Kniffen is both...right chief.
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Post by porkchopsisgood »

Tomorrow....hopefully.....yay.....
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Post by anonymous4 »

porkchopsisgood wrote:Tomorrow....hopefully.....yay.....
I though tomorrow was Audition #1 and that there would be a second audition with more candidates in March? The orchestra would then pick after that. Could be wrong though.
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