A gallon of gas...?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I OWE A BIG APOLOGY TO JAMES (TUBASHAMAN) -

He was absolutely correct about the free rotation/leak repair policy at Discount Tire (and America's Tire). I'm one of those guys who always thinks it's "too good to be true," but in this case, it's too good and true!

If there is a Discount Tire/America's Tire near you, I would highly recommend you take advantage of the free rotation service, especially. I wish there was one here in Stillwater to save my aching back. I rotate mine every 6 months, on or near January 1 and July 1...Saturday is the next target date...ouch.

Again, James, sorry I doubted you, man. That's an awesome company you work for.

[Rick Denney]

That's is a little rough, but each to his own.

As a former professional mechanic and current and past owner of many vehicles, my comment was based on experience.

For example: I had a wheel on my previous Subaru warped permanently because the tire store "technician" was a little too aggressive with the impact wrench. Brake rotors are also subject to warping from improper tire lug torquing.

And I've never yet seen a tire-store tech who really knew how to use a torque wrench, except the ones I showed how. They all tightened the lugs down with an air wrench, and then went around with their click-style torque wrench. They would get the click, all right. But the lug was already too tight. If the nut isn't turning when the wrench clicks, then it is no measuring tightening torque. I showed them that they had to loosen the nut beyond where it clicked, and then tighten it until it clicks. Who know how many wheels and brake rotors wobble down the road because of that problem.

I have had wheels become loose from being improperly torqued. Funny, but when I torque my own wheels, they NEVER become loose. Hmmm.

As James can tell you, the training required to change tires is pretty minimal. It takes an act of will on the part of a tire tech not to be a monkey with a wrench.

Rick "who could tell LOTS more stories than James" Denney

[MaryAnn]

I've used the Discount Tire flat-repair service, and yeah it was free.

Costco, at least our local one, torques the lugs to spec. At other places, I make a huge point of telling the tire-mounter to torque the lugs to spec, using the "excuse" that as a small fragile female, that I need to be able to get them OFF when in the middle of nowhere. So far, so good. I can change a tire just fine, IF I can get it off. I've seen lug studs(?) actually break off when the lug had been air-gunned on and was on a while.

MA, who still need to buy that pipe to keep in the back with the lug wrench

[SplatterTone]

MA, who still need to buy that pipe to keep in the back with the lug wrench

See what you think of this. The gear (planetary, pretty sure) ratio is 33:1.
http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/ite ... emid=93645

[Todd S. Malicoate]

What does "star" mean in this context?

And also, what kind of training is involved in getting the "torquing" certification? I've got more auto parts "certifications" than I can count, and most of them involved going to one 2 hour presentation (which it is quite possible to sleep through, although of course I would never do something like that ).

[ThomasDodd]

MA, who still need to buy that pipe to keep in the back with the lug wrench

See what you think of this. The gear (planetary, pretty sure) ratio is 33:1.
http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/ite ... emid=93645

Cool. Might be useful for suspension work and engine dissassembly. Those main bolts can be tough.


Looks to be planetary gears. Bottom of the last page...
http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/93 ... /93645.pdf

[Rick Denney]

Star with gun to hold
Star 1-2 seconds
Star with hand torque wrench
then circle (TO CHECK)....crucial to 8 lugnut bigass trucks

NO! Do not park an air wrench on a lug after it is initially tight, even for 1 or 2 seconds. That will nearly always overtorque the lug, especially on small cars with small lugs. Training, schmaining.

Use the air wrench to make them initially snug only, and then only if you must. As soon as the wrench starts to hammer, stop it.

Then, tighten with a torque wrench.

If the torque wrench clicks before the nut turns on the lug, then it is TOO TIGHT. It MUST be loosened before being retightened to the proper torque. Lugs that are overtightened warp wheels, rotors, and often cause the lugs themselves to yield, leading to potential fatigue failures.

As I learned as a professional mechanic, impact wrenches are properly used for disassembly, not for assembly of parts that must be properly torqued. I no longer even use them for disassembly of many parts because of the damage they can do. And I have a 3/4", two 1/2", and a 3/8" butterfly impact wrenches and a compressor that can drive them, so I'm not a luddite on the subject of air tools in general. I did use it to install a hitch on my truck last week, but I had to break two of the old bolts for the previous hitch to get them out, because the previous guy probably also used an impact wrench. It's not a problem there if you have to do that. But it is a huge problem if you cause threads on a lug to yield, and they are tightened to a high percentage of their yield strength.

I don't mind using them to run the nut down to initial snug, but even that is a risk best saved for people who know what they are doing. If you are cross-threaded or if there is a bit of grit on the threads, the impact wrench will destroy the part before you realize the problem. But you would feel the problem immediately using a hand wrench or socket and ratchet handle.

Replacing lugs is a pain, especially when the owner is paying to have it done the next time he gets new tires, and the guy who caused the damage never even realizes it.

Rick "whose idea of training for hand skills is a lot more apprenticeship and a lot less sitting in class watching videos" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Looks to be planetary gears. Bottom of the last page...
http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/93 ... /93645.pdf

The word from the GMC motorhome crowd is that these usually break on first use. I have not used or handled them, so I'm just reporting the experience of others.

Rick "who prefers a longer handle" Denney

[ThomasDodd]

Looks to be planetary gears. Bottom of the last page...
http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/93 ... /93645.pdf

The word from the GMC motorhome crowd is that these usually break on first use. I have not used or handled them, so I'm just reporting the experience of others.

Shucks.
Could have been handy for pulling head with the engine in the car (or the back of a truck, on the ground).



As to parking an impact wrench, wouldn't it depend on the setting on the wrench?
I know the old problem was they were set to high, and over torqued the nuts. A real problem for aluminum wheels, and to a lesser degree brake rotors. Oh, and many females when then had a flat.

Would an air ratchet instead of and impact wrench make much difference?

Electric with a magnetic clutch? I've used drills with clutches (to not strip screws) that were consistent.

[Rick Denney]

As to parking an impact wrench, wouldn't it depend on the setting on the wrench?
I know the old problem was they were set to high, and over torqued the nuts. A real problem for aluminum wheels, and to a lesser degree brake rotors. Oh, and many females when then had a flat.

Would an air ratchet instead of and impact wrench make much difference?

Electric with a magnetic clutch? I've used drills with clutches (to not strip screws) that were consistent.

The problem with impact wrenches is that they keep hammering as long as you keep holding the trigger down. My impact wrenches hammer more frequently and maybe with a bit more vigor when the pressure is high. Some impact wrenches might not generate enough torque to cause much damage, but I doubt that would be true for any 1/2" impact wrench. They all seem to be able to generate at least 275 foot-pounds of torque.

And air ratchet has no hammering effect and it is limited more consistently by air pressure. But it's no faster to use for tightening than a socket. I have a 3/8" air ratchet and I almost never use it. I do, however, use the 3/8" butterfly impact wrench, and a lot. But I use it for disassembly, not assembly.

I doubt many electric drivers with magnetic clutches would provide enough torque to be of much use without being really heavy. But why? It takes so little time to run a bolt down with a ratchet handle. I use my impact wrench to snug up lugs, but never to get them much past "finger-tight".

I know that the OEM's use air and hydraulic tools on assembly lines that can produce a specific torque repeatably, but these are not like the impact wrenches used by mechanics and tire shops. And there are extenders for impact wrenches that release the wrench at specific torque values that might be useful, but I have never handled those and don't know how they work.

Rick "who could bring up the use of anti-seize compound and its effect on torque, and really open a can o' worms" Denney

[SplatterTone]

The word from the GMC motorhome crowd is that these usually break on first use.

"It's always something!"

Being a tool junkie, I have two of them, but never have used them. I always use the 4-way lug wrench. I'd say it's about time I gave the gizmo wrench a try.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Thanks for the clarification, James. I didn't realize you were talking about a torquing pattern. 2 seconds seems like an awfully long time to hit a lug nut that's already snugged up with a power tool. Do you use the colored torque sticks with the tool?

That's not to say the guy you pay $50 doesn't over-torque the nuts with a power tool, either. Or that James does. I think I'll continue to do my own with my trusty 1/2" ratchet and the occasional piece of exhaust pipe for an extension.

Gotta keep those freebies moving in and out of the service bays fast, though. "Home of the free tire rotations and flat repair" makes a whole lot more sense to me now.

Todd S. "who has replaced many lug studs with questionable threads" Malicoate

[Tubaryan12]

A Pontiac Vibe (Toyota Matrix) requires at least mid-test gasoline...' correct?

bloke "anyone sellin' one with a 6-speed trans.?"

Don't do the Vibe GT or the Matrix XRS with the 6 speed. They are notoriously bad on clutches. These are the only 2 versions of the car that require premium. The other engine takes regular unleaded.

Tubaryan "I got rid of my Vibe for a reason" 12

.....and I didn't have the 6 speed.

[JHardisk]

I too got rid of my Vibe. It was an 04' and was a great little car. Some yahoo pulled out in front of me in late 06' and smashed up the entire front end. I had it replaced, but it was never the same. Luckily, last summer in the big gas craze, I sold it for 6k more than I owed. Bought an 08' Prius, and couldn't be happier!

It took regular unleaded gas.

[Tubaryan12]

As a tuba hauler, I will admit that the Vibe / Matrix is a great car. If you do get one, look at the 2003-2004 models. I had a 2005 and they were the ones with the problems with the PCM. The 2005 model was the 1st model that had drive by wire. I had PCM and transmission problems before I got to 80k (79985 exactly....I couldn't get it to the dealership without going over 80K). If not for this, I would still be driving it today. To be honest, I only miss my Vibe when I pull into the garage and when I pull up to the gas pump. My Vibe averaged 33 mpg over its life with me. The V6 Rondo is averaging 27 mpg so far. Not bad for a v6 powered, 7 passenger vehicle, but that extra 6 mpg gives the Vibe 1 extra day per week between fill ups. My last tank in the Rondo gave me 29.9 mpg so it is getting better as it breaks in a little more. The extra driver room alone in the Rondo is worth the extra $5 -$10 per week it costs me to drive it.

[J. Laux]

If only I could carry my tuba on the motorcycle. I tested my economy on my GSXR-1000 and got a 10 mpg less by driving at the speed limits and accelerating slowly with no unneeded passing.

[Tubaryan12]

well, If you still want to get the GT, at least read some of this:

http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=5172

This thread started back in 2003.....the Vibe's 1st year.

I have no doubt of your shifting skills, but some cars are better than others. The 5 speed Vibe got no where near the amount of complaints as the GT.

I've never worn out a clutch as well. I test drove a GT....and instantly made the decision to buy the automatic. The gearbox in that thing is horrible.

A few words to the wise (and you have proven to be that).

and don't forget....the GT takes premium gas. Buying premium gas is so un-bloke like.

[J. Laux]

I tested my economy on my GSXR-1000 and got a 10 mpg less by driving at the speed limits and accelerating slowly with no unneeded passing.

My mileage seems to remain the same on my 1200cc Venture Royale regardless of how I drive. Of course I haven't really tried it on a long trip yet, but from what I understand, my range will still be around 150 miles even on the highway. As for hauling a tuba on a motorcycle, you could always get a trailer...

...or a gig bag that looks like a biker chick (shouldn't be much of a challenge) featuring straps that look like arms.

That is a great idea about the gig bag, although I would be scared to death of carrying my tuba on a bike.