Helicon playing position

[imperialbari]

But I cannot play it in tune... This band tunes to A=442, I can get most of the open bugle to center the meter needle, but once I get to playing along, needle is + or - 20 most of the time. Alternate fingerings help... C in the staff is good with 1+3, Bnat just below that is good with 2+4. I can manage if the music is slow enough. In short, I'm never gonna be able to use this thing except for once a year outside where pitch doesn't count much.

My gut reaction is to take sledge hammer to it and sell the 16 lbs of brass for scrap. I gotta get rid of it.

Of course you should neither scrap nor abandon that helicon.

Some instruments are said to be mouthpiece sensitive. In general I don’t agree upon that statement. But it hardly is a coincidence, that Czech instruments in general come with shallow, but still funnel shaped, mouthpieces with a narrow throat.

Some players are mouthpiece sensitive. I certainly am one of these. I want space and volume for my embouchure to work with.

But as you may have read in another thread, a 135 years old instrument has had me revise my views to a less rigid level.

Try out some mouthpieces. What comes first to my mind is the PT-line numbered higher than 50. They represent exactly, what I dislike, but for the permutation of you and that helicon one of these might be the right thing.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[Donn]

But it hardly is a coincidence, that Czech instruments in general come with shallow, but still funnel shaped, mouthpieces with a narrow throat.

Mine likes a Conn 3, which is more or less a shallow funnel shape - but actually with a very wide throat, 8.5mm by my measurement, to match the wide for F bore of 18mm.

The shallow depth makes a lot of sense for A) an F tuba, and maybe B) the way some Eastern European bass tuba players like to sound. Surely a large bore (20mm) BBb would want a somewhat deeper one.

Flat 5th partial (open D in staff) is sort of predictable, I thought, more amazing when it doesn't happen. As for flat vs. sharp overall, mine is hard to tune sharp because I need the leadpipe fully extended to reach my mouth. A mouthpiece might resolve these problems, or maybe not.

[iiipopes]

I agree with the Perantucci suggestion. I don't know the model numbers, but they have an "American" series which most people are familiar with, and a "German" series, which do have for the most part the shallower cups.

[Donn]

I agree with the Perantucci suggestion. I don't know the model numbers, but they have an "American" series which most people are familiar with, and a "German" series, which do have for the most part the shallower cups.

Unfortunately though also the rounded cups. My much more limited experience agrees with Klaus, the shallow funnel shape that he says ships with these helicons is better for at least my F. Don't know any specific current models to recommend, though. (And I have not noticed any effect on the flat 5th partial, anyway.)

[OldBandsman]

OK Gentlemen:

Thank you very much for an interesting discussion and all the good advice about what to do with this helicon I bought a
year ago. I spent some more time with it today, trying out the four mouthpieces I have on my shelf. I'm going to have
to do some looking around for the Parantuchi PT50+, Klaus, to see how mine compare. The shallowest I have here is a Yamaha66. I think the tuning may have been a bit more reliable with it but the tone was really thin. I was surprised
to come that close with pitch. I've got a 1930's Conn Helleberg and a 1940's Conn2. I think they are pretty similar and both sound well with the helicon, pitch is not great once I get away from the tuner. Donn, is a Conn3 a lot different?
There is a 24AWI that came with the horn. It's about like the Conns but provides a bigger tone. And then the G&W Caver I'm using with my Yamaha YBB641. Lots of tone but lousy pitch. So the shallow mouthpiece looks better for pitch.

I rather think I'm the major factor in this problem. I have never been able to hear pitches accurately in my head. I've
made a lot of progress on this over the past few years and at 74 am playing the best I ever have. I'm in a couple of
community bands, one of which is improving rapidly. I've got to keep up. I think the YBB641 is well enough designed that it helps me get the right pitch. I suspect the helicon, an older design that may not have been reworked much and is just not sophisticated enough to give me the help I need.

Perhaps my best move would be to trade both instruments off on a better BBb tuba that would be compact, with good
tuning and easier to carry around. Ulli, thanks for the offer of a trade, but I'd guess the Kaiser (it's an Eb??) wouldn't help that much.

I'm going to see what the chances are for trade in and see if I can find a PT 6xx to try. Thanks much for the suggestions. Helicon is saved from the scrap yard.

[imperialbari]

I'm going to have to do some looking around for the Parantuchi PT50+, Klaus, to see how mine compare.

Please be aware, that the Perantucci PT-50+ is a very specific model, the heavy version of the PT-50

I rather think I'm the major factor in this problem. I have never been able to hear pitches accurately in my head. I've made a lot of progress on this over the past few years and at 74 am playing the best I ever have.

I admire your energy and your being intended on improvement.

As a former brass teacher I would say, that your problems with playing in tune probably come from the fact, that you never have had any formal training in that matter.

There are various effective methods like ear training classes, playing duets with an experienced player, and playing scales.

The duet factor today can be handled electronically with computers, tapes, CD’s, or whatever. Other TubeNet’ters may refer you to relevant material. Even playing simple chord progressions along with some sort of keyboard may be helpful. Playing simple hymns along with a friend playing even a synthesizer may be a manageable solution.

As for scales I have made my own very flexible system, which will work from the range of most amateurs right into more demanding octaves.

There is a version for each pitch of tuba (F, Eb, CC, BBb), but they are all in the same file within each of the 6 scale modes represented, so please make a selective printing of the free .pdf files to avoid wasting paper.

If you can manage to play a few core keys just in the major mode, there is a great chance that your intonation will improve.

My index says this:

Low brass scale routines by Klaus Bjerre. Routines for the Major mode, the natural, melodic, and harmonic Minor modes, the Mixolydian mode, and the Dorian mode. Each mode has pages addressed directly to Euphonium (baritone, trombones) in treble and bass clefs plus bass clef tubas in F, Eb, CC, and BBb. These routines may also be used by other treble clef brasses, clarinets, and saxophones.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... 0routines/

My download homepage has a link for the index of all my uploaded music files. You can download them for free, when I have received your reply to my "Welcome"-mail. Players already approved for the group in question of course have direct access.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre of Denmark Retired teacher

Index over 45MB+ of free music files in .pdf format to be found in the Files area of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterBBb/ (Approved membership required)

Index over 2.3GB of brass instruments galleries and catalogue scans to be found in the Files area of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... PhotosIII/ (Membership is open for all)

[Donn]

I've got a 1930's Conn Helleberg and a 1940's Conn2. I think they are pretty similar and both sound well with the helicon, pitch is not great once I get away from the tuner. Donn, is a Conn3 a lot different?

Yes, it's much shallower, sort of as if a quarter inch had been sawed off the top of the Conn 2. (I didn't measure that.) Also a little narrower. It was sold to me as an Eb mouthpiece, and evidently some of them had small shanks. It doesn't sound awful on my BBb sousaphone, but the Conn 2 sounds better.

Helicon is saved from the scrap yard.

Hurray!

It is certainly true that some tubas are easier to play in tune than others, and that sure makes life easier. My sousaphone is pretty good in this respect, and I believe it was made in 1928. I used to have an '80s Miraphone 190(?) that had the flat 5th partial problem. I bet you could pay big bucks today for a new tuba with this problem and worse.