Arrangements of The Planets - why?

[Albertibass]

well i don't know the skill level of the group you are playing with, but i played jupiter in all county orchestra this dec. And i was disapointed. It was the waterd-down version, and yeah wasn't that exciting. But that is because the conducter didn't feel we could do it. anywho i guess thats a reason. (for a high school level orchestra). i can't find a reason for a capable group.

[Rick Denney]

with all due respect, if someone wanted to work out an arrangement of "The Planets" from it's original form, they should look at the piano duet score, as it was originally written.

It depends on what sort of arrangement you want. If you want an arrangement that takes pretty melodies and harmonies and does nice things with them, then it doesn't matter what you start with. But if you want arrangements that sound like the orchestral version the audience is accustomed to, then you really have to start with the orchestrated version.

I know that Holst thought the Planets overshadowed his other work too much, but artists are seldom the best judges of their own works. It has a power not present in much of the rest of his output. Such is the power of the Planets that I don't think that should be taken as criticism of his other works.

Rick "who loves it when a band produces an orchestral sound" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I have seen the same writings about VW's 4th. It truly was a backlash against the war, and probably a strange paen to Buttersworth, a very gifted composer and friend who was killed in the First World War. VW's pacifist leanings are not so well known, but present in alot of his music of that time.

A backlash against which war? After WWI, RVW wrote the third symphony (named, and sounding, Pastoral), Santa Civitas and Job, A Masque for Dancing, before he composed the Symphony in F minor in 1935. The progression of these works gives lie to the notion that the 4th was an aberration. I think RVW was just feeling his oats as a composer, tiring of beauty and ready to make some noise like he did in his favorite symphony, the Second. SC hints at it, and Satan's Dance in Job is as raucous as anything in the Fourth.

Vaughan Williams was an ambulance orderly, despite being aristocratic and despite his age, during WWI. The only work where he claims a connection was the Third Symphony, where the cornet solo was intended to evoke the sounds of mournful bugle calls across the fields. He vigorously refuted any connection between the 4th and war.

RVW was a pacifist, but that doesn't mean he didn't understand the necessity of war in some cases. He volunteered to serve in that ambulance, and he purposely wrote scores for movies during WWII that were produced for the sole purpose of developing support for the war. He was quite clear that he though this something that a music composer in his 60's and 70's could do to contribute to the war effort. His refusal to accept a knighthood is well known, and the reason he gave is that he didn't believe in making that sort of commitment to a monarch. But he did accept the Order of the British Empire, which required no such oath of fealty.

Rick "who concedes on the Holst issue and who really just wanted a way to shift the discussion over to Vaughan Williams" Denney

[Chuck Jackson]

Rick,

I will gladly rejoin the fray tomorrow, but I have to run to a rehearsal. RVW has been quoted, and mis-quoted, often in contradiction to his 4th. I will dredge up some old radio notes and relay what I found. He was cagey about his feelings and disdainful of interviews, so he could have been toying.

Chuck"who would love to have this conversation in person but who loves 70 degree weather in March so there is no way he is coming east until July when it is too hot to think in Las Vegas"Jackson

[JB]

with all due respect, if someone wanted to work out an arrangement of "The Planets" from it's original form, they should look at the piano duet score, as it was originally written.

I am somewhat curious about this statement. I own a copy of the two piano version, but somehow had the understanding (perhaps from the recollections of his daughter, [but am unsure and since I am not near to my reference materials at home] that the two piano form was a step in the process to creating the final orchestral work. This provided a means to "hear" in tangible form what he had written. Again, this is working without the aid of close-at-hand "backup," and a recollection from a number of yeras back.

Do you have access to documented sources/citation(s) for the piano version being "the final form?" Hoping so.

Cheers
JB

[prototypedenNIS]

Do you have access to documented sources/citation(s) for the piano version being "the final form?" Hoping so.

That I don't have but it is common for many composers to write something, then re-arrange it again and again.

This could be a grey area of knowledge. I've never heard someone talk of Holst viewing it as a step in the process, then again, I'm young and have a bigger mouth than I have the knowledge to back it up with.

[JB]

Do you have access to documented sources/citation(s) for the piano version being "the final form?" Hoping so.

That I don't have but it is common for many composers to write something, then re-arrange it again and again.

This could be a grey area of knowledge. I've never heard someone talk of Holst viewing it as a step in the process, then again, I'm young and have a bigger mouth than I have the knowledge to back it up with.

I don't have quick and easy access to the materials -- they're buried away in one of a bunch storage boxes from about 15 - 20 yrs ago -- but I did do a fair bit of digging into this work at the time. My recollection (and by no means a statement of absolute fact) is that Holst did envision this as an orchestral work from the start, and (somehow I believe it was his daughter who was quoted) that the two piano version was a step in the process so that he could then orchestrate from that after "hearing aloud' what he had written. If I can, sometime when time is a little more abundant, I’ll go on a digging expedition in the storage stuff and see if I can find those materials. Now I’m curious, too.

[windshieldbug]

"Holst worked on the piece from 1913 to 1916, beginning with Mars and ending with Mercury. His neuritis made it difficult for him to copy out the parts, so he wrote a two-piano version for his students and teaching staff, notating the orchestration which was then copied out by others. It was several years, however, before the full work was performed, in part because the cost of hiring the augmented orchestra was difficult during wartime: the piece requires two harps, celesta, organ, varied percussion, and a full complement of bass instruments including bass flute, bass clarinet, bass tuba, bass trombone, contrabassoon, and the seldom-used bass oboe. It was first performed privately on September 29, 1918 as a present to Holst from his friend and patron Balfour Gardiner, with Adrian Boult conducting the New Queen's Hall Orchestra. The first public performance was given on November 15, 1920, when the work met with immediate success."

Program notes by Barbara Heninger

[Rick Denney]

He was cagey about his feelings and disdainful of interviews, so he could have been toying.

What he was disdainful of was reporters who kept asking him what his music meant, and he had a good sense of humor when putting them in their place.

He was also self-effacing with musicians for works that he conducted, including the 4th.

But he consistently maintained that his music had no specific story line, even though he did say that some works were intended to evoke a scene (though he never said that in connection with the 4th).

Rick "who has never found any reference to Vaughan Williams writing music with a war theme, except for the scores for The 49th Parallel, Coastal Command, and The Flemish Farm" Denney

[dave]

Here are links to the McAlister/Reed edition.

The main changes are
key: orig. Holst is in Bb, McAlister/Reed is in C,
change in range: Holst goes from low C below the staff to high Bb, McAlister/Reed goes from low F below the staff to high C
elimination of low passages.

Personally, I don't like the McAlister/Reed. It doesn't fit a Bb horn nearly as well as the Holst. An example is the 16th note passage starting in measure 12, but also all the high lyrical passages being up a note make
it a lot harder to have the same style.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/swtools/_ima ... ter2-1.jpg
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/swtools/_ima ... ter2-1.jpg
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/swtools/_ima ... ter2-1.jpg

-Dave

[Chuck(G)]

Rick "who has never found any reference to Vaughan Williams writing music with a war theme, except for the scores for The 49th Parallel, Coastal Command, and The Flemish Farm" Denney

How about "Five Wartime Hymns" or his stage works? The BB's doing his Henry V overture in concert next weekend and I'm pretty sure that there's battle music there (either that or I don't have the right idea behind that maniacal middle section).

[iiipopes]

It may not be really "battle," as we think of scores underlying battle scenes, but the Henry V Agincourt song from Act III scene 7 is definitely connected with the famous battle.

http://www.rvwsociety.com

[Rick Denney]

How about "Five Wartime Hymns" or his stage works? The BB's doing his Henry V overture in concert next weekend and I'm pretty sure that there's battle music there (either that or I don't have the right idea behind that maniacal middle section).

I was considering his orchestral music only, and even at that I missed a couple of his more obscure wartime movie scores.

BB?

Rick "who thinks 'Satan's Dance' from Job is about as dissonant as the fourth symphony, and not about the 'situation in Europe'" Denney

[JB]

"His neuritis made it difficult for him to copy out the parts, so he wrote a two-piano version for his students and teaching staff, notating the orchestration which was then copied out by others."

Program notes by Barbara Heninger

Thanks windshieldbug; my foggy recollection seems to jive with this after all. So the two-piano version was a step in the process of the orchestral piece's creating.

Also -- thanks for posting the program notes link; a good resource to remember.

[Chuck(G)]

BB?

Brass band--RVW wrote works for it. While I don't care for his "Variations", I do like Henry V, which has some very tasty bass parts in it.

[Rick Denney]

Brass band--RVW wrote works for it. While I don't care for his "Variations", I do like Henry V, which has some very tasty bass parts in it.

OK. The Variations was a contest piece, wasn't it? One of the things I don't like about BB is the emphasis on competition, and therefore the need for music that reveals competitive aspects. I feel the same about a lot of music written for band.

Rick "who has no idea of RVW was letting the contest aspects get the better of him or just having an off day" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

OK. The Variations was a contest piece, wasn't it? One of the things I don't like about BB is the emphasis on competition, and therefore the need for music that reveals competitive aspects. I feel the same about a lot of music written for band.

Particularly in the UK, contesting is a central feature of brass banding and it's been this way for more than 150 years (The first British Open was what, 1853?). Because there's money involved and the publicity of a national competition, composers are willing to accept commissions for works written specially for brass band.

And, because it's a competition, those test pieces really work everyone over--including the tubas.

Not all bands are competitive, particularly in the USA. Since NABBA seems to be set on holding their events in the eastern US, it's unlikely that my group will ever be interested in joining them.

On the other hand, we get the benefit of the music written for competitions, which can be breathtaking.

[Easty621]

Is there any way to download Mars tuba part in pdf format?

[prototypedenNIS]

"His neuritis made it difficult for him to copy out the parts, so he wrote a two-piano version for his students and teaching staff, notating the orchestration which was then copied out by others."

Program notes by Barbara Heninger

Thanks windshieldbug; my foggy recollection seems to jive with this after all. So the two-piano version was a step in the process of the orchestral piece's creating.

Also -- thanks for posting the program notes link; a good resource to remember.

once again, live, learn and apologize for lack of knowledge, thank God I'm not Dan Rather!