curious

[quinterbourne]

I'm in music performance right now at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Ontario.

I paid for my own tuba and I'm paying for my own school, with a certain percent being already paid in scholarships.

There isn't anything else in the world that bugs me more than guys who walk into school carrying their new %^&#brunners with them and don't realize how lucky they are to have that and what a privelage it is to be able to do that at a post secondary level.

If everyone had to work for their horn, I think people would weigh the significance of the pursuit much differently.

Winston and I know each other, we study at the same university in Canada. I, too, paid for my lil' Conn 3J CC tuba on my own - no help from mommy and daddy. However, they do help out quite a bit with tuition... I have the utmost respect for Winston taking that huge task on his own.

I know a fellow, a nice guy, who went to my university a few years ago. This guy had rich parents, and they completely paid for his Miraphone 188 CC - I think it was around $12000 (that's a LOT of money, I think they got ripped off a little, and the Canadian dollar wasn't very strong back then). They also paid for his tuition, books, residence, food, etc.

Well, this guy just WOULD NOT PRACTICE. I can understand someone not studying the music history/theory, but when you have a pretty tuba, you should want to practice on it. I had a chance to play on it for a couple weeks, and it was a GOOD tuba. He has since been kicked out of the school, and is now working at a restaurant. He has this $12000 instrument sitting in his apartment and is never played.

I can sort of understand someone not working very hard prior to university. Most high schools don't have a strong focus on instrumental music or band, so you really need to work on the academics. Most universities, here in Canada, require a certain academic standing to get into a music performance program. Playing the instrument can't really be that big of a thing. Plus, add in a part time job along with lack of practice rooms at school as well as parents/neighbors who don't want to hear you practice, and you're bound to not get in many hours practicing.

Usually, in high school, when you are usually the best player in the band (you sort of have to be to consider a future in music) so you don't necessarily see a huge need to practice all that much. Then, when most kids get to university they realize that they are just a small fish in a big ocean, that's when they really step up and practice hard. However, there are those who don't practice hard when they get into university, I think those are the worst offenders.

[windshieldbug]

Usually, in high school, when you are usually the best player in the band (you sort of have to be to consider a future in music) so you don't necessarily see a huge need to practice all that much. Then, when most kids get to university they realize that they are just a small fish in a big ocean

And if you think it's a big ocean... think how many tuba jobs open up. That includes playing and teaching. My wife, the collej perfesser, has the same problem with flutists (maybe a few more jobs, but a ton more flutists)

It's one thing to be driven to work in this field, but for god's sake go in with your eyes open... and think of the drive, talent, and proficiency that one recent University of Michigan graduate had (the same type of person with which you will be competing for those few jobs!)

[pulseczar]

Usually, in high school, when you are usually the best player in the band (you sort of have to be to consider a future in music) so you don't necessarily see a huge need to practice all that much. Then, when most kids get to university they realize that they are just a small fish in a big ocean, that's when they really step up and practice hard. However, there are those who don't practice hard when they get into university, I think those are the worst offenders.

That's me. I thought I was pretty bada$$ in high school but once I came to college, I was blown out of the water by the other tubists.

Times are a changing. I don't know if its only California politics, but back before the 70s there was huge support for music and the arts because of alot of money going to schools, but after some huge proposition schools lost so much money that sports and performing arts programs were downsized or even cut because of lack of funding.

Anyways, thank you bloke for posting this as a friendly reminder. I just bought a tuba and I've been spending so much time at work trying to pay it off that I haven't really put in the hours practicing.

[ken k]

I always am amazed a the kids who say they want to major in music, but never played a piano in their life or never sang in chorus.

i am not saying one needs to be a performing pianist, or a vocal soloist, but to not have a working knowledge of the piano before going to college to study music is ridiculous. It just helps one understand theory and musical concepts so much more than just playing a single line instrument. while singing develops the ear and breathing in ways just playing your instrument alone can not.

ken k

[Ryan_Beucke]

So I ask, who's fault is all of this?

How is a student supposed to know in HS exactly how to practice, or that they should really be practicing nearly this much if they want to be a major? Most grade school kids only practice band music, and don't know about all the other stuff.

And what about ear training, singing, and piano stuff? Who's supposed to tell a student that they need to do this?

Obviously the music teachers should be putting these kids on the right paths, but it seems like unless you come from a family who has done this before, you're at a disadvantage. A music teacher should be seeing the potential of a student and helping them pursue it, but there's a limit to how much they can do.

[DaTubaKid]

I think that a part of the lack of directed practicing going on during high school years is affected by how high school as changed.

I mean, take a look at a lot of high school kids that are involved in music. Most are probably in more than one ensemble. Most are involved in some sort of sport (at least one!). Some are involved in clubs at school. Some hold part time jobs.

High schoolers are allowed a lot more opportunities that branch out and try new things in high school (at least from what I've heard, I'm a youngin). They don't HAVE 3 hours a day to dedicate to music. They're too busy taking advantage of all the clubs, sports, jobs, and whatever they're being offered to focus on one thing alone.

Bloke, when you were in high school, where you playing 4 instruments regularly, in 5 different ensembles, two sports, 2 AP classes, and holding a non-music related part-time job? I was (and not to put you down for not if you weren't, I"m pointing out how things have changed.)

[Ryan_Beucke]

Bloke, I really am curious how your friend knew to do all that. Obviously money can help some people (with lessons, working instrument), but regardless of your monetary status, you need someone to show you what to do in order to know how to improve!

There are very few people who have been able to pick up an instrument and learn it and improve without the help of a mentor. For the rest of us, regardless of if we've got a school horn or the latest 10000 dollar horn, we need some type of guidance.

[Rick Denney]

I knew (from my experience with the guitar) that the concept of "talent" is 99% bullshit. "Directed study", however, ALWAYS produces results if applied consistently.

Joe, I submit that you are mistaken here.

I think the "talent" is the motivation to put in that level of practice, day after day, focusing on fundamentals. That would drive less talented people insane.

I've seen reports of studies that show that prodigies are not marked so much by innate skill as by the innate and single-minded drive to attain skill.

Nobody recognizes motivation and drive when they have it, but it is all too palpable when they don't.

Even today, when most kids are brought up without the work culture that infused our upbringing, there are kids who seem to be driven to pursue the area in which they are "talented". The daily mustering of discipline comes easy for them. It's the rest of us who find that most difficult.

I have a talent for the work that I do, seeing time-space and geometric relationships far better than most people do. I was good at subjects related to that skill, and therefore worked hard in those subjects. That hard work brought more accomplishment, and that fed my motivation. In the end, is it talent or hard work? I don't think those can be separated. But something I have and that I had from a very early age set me apart from most people in those areas.

As an adult amateur tuba player, I cannot find the motivation practice the tuba (let alone "directed practice") hours a day. I don't get the results that motivate further practice, and so my progress is protracted over years. And the role that playing tuba has in my life has to be balanced against other interests. But that doesn't mean I'm undisciplined, it means that I choose not to focus on that particular skill set to the exclusion of other skill sets.

Where I absolutely agree with the point you are making is in cautioning that kids who do not have that drive to excel in music through hard work really have no business wasting the time and money it takes for a conservatory education that was designed for people who do.

And remember, talent, however defined, is a gift from God. It's tempting for us to credit our own hard work, when the motivation to do that work was a blessing bestowed on us. (I don't expect that statement to cut much ice with many, but I know it will with Bloke.)

Rick "thinking talent is rarely recognized by the talented" Denney

[windshieldbug]

Leaving high school aside for the moment, perhaps one should at least go into a college or conservatory performance-related degree expecting to put in the kind of effort required to be successful at this kind of work!

[TexTuba]

I don't see that much being pulled from piano. I had NO experience with piano before entering college and have managed to do just fine with ear training and theory. I am terrible at piano, but I work my butt off to make sure I pass the classes. I guess the ear training part wasn't too bad because I would pick up the tuba and play what was on the radio. I didn't know what "intervals" were called or any of the theory behind the stuff, I just played. What really helped me though in the beginning of college was taking theory in high school...twice!
I believe with music in general, students don't know what they're getting in to. The amount of work, study, and practice involved is incredible. It's a very challenging degree but one that I love working towards because it's what I want to do.
I am now a performance major, having switched from ed. My parents don't pay for my school and did not pay for my CC. I took out loans for both and will eventually take one out for a bass tuba. Will all of this work out in the end? I have no clue, but I'm going to give it my best shot. And in the end if it doesn't, I can always go back and get my teacher certification. There ALWAYS looking for BD's in Texas. Adios amigos!!

Ralph

[TexTuba]

Any phenomena as widespread and universal as the loss of momentum of Generation X cannot be blamed on the kids themselves.

You know, and this is NO WAY coming down on you, but I am sick and tired of hearing people in my age group blaming others for their choices. My family couldn't afford to send me to college, or help out much. So I took the initiative to do WHATEVER it took to go through. That meant/means working quite a bit and taking out large loans. Sleep is something that I can MAYBE do when I get older..haha. I'm just so sick of kids(because that's what THEY are)bitching that they do nothing or don't get the jobs they want. You want something? Then work your *** off like everyone else does in the real world to try and get it. Yes, I was taught to work hard. But just because someone is NOT taught the same lesson doesn't give them the excuse to be lazy. EVERYONE needs to be accountable for themselves. If you want to be a bum, more power to you. Just be ready to accept all of the consequences of such a decision. "I want to quit school." "I don't wanna go to college." "Why do THIS or THAT?" You don't want to, fine. I know my uncle is always looking for some ditch diggers and concrete layers in construction. There's nothing wrong with that, it's an honest living and somebody has to do it. But who ever said when they were growing up, "I want to dig a ditch or work at McDonald's when I grow up." End rant.

Ralph

[MaryAnn]

Ah, well. You know you have gone over the top of the ole hill when you like to sit around and complain about the youth of the day.

And I, I walked twelve miles to school, both ways, in three feet of snow, year-round.

I notice that for every no-good, lazy too-much-hair-pants-too-low kid I see, I see another who just works his/her tush off. Some of the ones who work said tushes off have too much hair and pants too low, too.

I tuned into Austin City Limits over the weekend and saw Jason Mraz for the first time. He's going to go somewhere, that kid. Pocket rocket coming or not.

MA

[windshieldbug]

And I, I walked twelve miles to school, both ways, in three feet of snow, year-round

You were lucky!

I had to tunnel to school through 5 miles of solid rock, both ways, and the going was so slow that when I got there I barely had time to clean up before I'd start back home again.
And you tell that to the kids today, they won't believe you!

[MaryAnn]

Well, I can't resist.

This child of the 60's (born in 1949,) both of whose parents volunteered for the Army in WWII to defend their country, walked 3/4 of a mile to grade school and a mile and a half to high school. Carrying an instrument quite a bit smaller than a tuba, of course.

I wouldn't be who/where I am today (no matter what your opinion is of that) if it weren't for my WWII-fighting, Depression-surviving parents who cared so much about education. May both of them rest in peace.

MA

[Rick Denney]

They viewed themselves as having "won" over the Germans and "won" over the Great Depression. When the time came for them to raise and supervise their children, many of them took a siesta and we ended up with something called "the 60's".

I think you are right on the mark, though as with any generalization, exceptions will abound.

My father, who as a high-school senior in 1945 just barely missed WWII. But he shared his university with them upon their return. The friction between the students of student age and the returning vets was palpable. My father notes that many of the vets cheated terribly. Based on those experiences and many that followed, he claimed that the WWII war-fighting generation was the first "me" generation. But he was so close to them that he didn't hold grudges--his three brothers were part of it and he full well appreciated what those people had endured.

Likewise, I missed Vietnam by about the same margin as he missed WWII, and I don't have many of the attitudes of those close to my age who were subjected to that misery.

I think our military music brethren will agree that in the military one has to look out for oneself and that any one person surviving and thriving is not really a concern of the higher ups. There is no coddling, and I suspect that a natural reaction upon coming back from a war is to distrust any authority.

As I said, exceptions abound.

Rick "noting that the Dr. Spock concept of permissive was a 50's thing and that 'Why Johnny Can't Read' was written also in the 50's" Denney