1292 4.5/4 follow-up (WWBW visit)

[Steve Inman]

For those of you who like this kind of stuff, start a new thread and list your "top dozen" horns in size order from small to large. Beside each horn, indicate if it's 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4 .... 3.5/4, etc. See what you can come up with, and see how arbitrary this becomes!

Here's an example (everything referenced to 186CC, with a few bass tubas thrown in for fun):

[snip]

If a thread of this nature ends up in consensus, then we will have truly solve one of life's greatest tuba mysteries!

Have fun!

Please note -- this was NOT the actual list -- it was an EXAMPLE. I have never seen the CSO York. I have never seen a Yamaha 826. For someone who has seen and played a good sample of all of these horns, please embark on fulfilling my request -- go create the "real" list!

I look forward to seeing it. (However, from the photos posted so far, the Yamaha CSO York copy still looks like it has a beefier bell flare to me!)

Cheers,

[Rick Denney]

(However, from the photos posted so far, the Yamaha CSO York copy still looks like it has a beefier bell flare to me!)

Naw. These pictures are all subtly different in the position of the camera, and have different angles and perspectives that will make the sort of comparison you are making difficult.

These are all 6/4 tubas, plain and simple. The Gronitz and 6450 are almost as big, and really fit in that category, too.

But none of them are really appreciably bigger than, say, a Rudi Meinl 5/4. That the Rudi is a 5/4 and the Holton a 6/4 says more about shape than size, and is more a matter of definition than difference.



I think it was Hirsbrunner that first put "6/4" on a tuba description, and they did that probably just to distinguish the Yorkbrunner from their kaiser tubas they had previous labeled as "5/4". As always, it's a label used by manufacturers to describe differences in their own line. There is no objective measure.

The instruments give meaning to the terms, not the other way around.

Instead of a numeric code, I would prefer less precise but more accurate word categories. Such as:

1. Solo/Chamber--all instruments intended for solo and chamber settings. This would include most current 3/4 and small 4/4 instruments, and would say as much about sound and application as physical size. Diverse examples: Miraphone 184, Rudi 3/4, Conn xJ.

2. Ensemble--Most standard instruments would fit here, such as a 186 or a 56J or a 2145 (and I think that 2145 is on the big end of what works in most quintets, unless the other four players are beyond mortal).

3. Orchestral--I'm thinking of instruments like the Alex 163, Miraphone 188, and Meinl-Weston Thor, to name three extremely diverse examples. The 1292 would probably land here, too, as would a Rudi 4/4 and a PT-6. People buy these to play in orchestras, not brass quintets, right?

4. Grand Orchestral--all Yorkophones and other fat American-style tubas intended for large works played in large ensembles in large settings, in the CSO/American band style. (THAT will get me in trouble, heh, heh.)

5. Kaiser--Rudi 5/4, Alex 164, etc. As above but in the Berlin style.

There would still be overlap, of course, and gray areas. But I contend that describing a 6450 as a Grand Orchestral tuba conveys more useful information than arguing about whether it's a 5.5/4 or a 6.2/4.

Rick "duck and cover" Denney

[Steve Inman]

Instead of a numeric code, I would prefer less precise but more accurate word categories. Such as:

1. Solo/Chamber
2. Ensemble
3. Orchestral
4. Grand Orchestral
5. Kaiser

There would still be overlap, of course, and gray areas. But I contend that describing a 6450 as a Grand Orchestral tuba conveys more useful information than arguing about whether it's a 5.5/4 or a 6.2/4.

Rick "duck and cover" Denney

Brilliant.... I only wish it would put an end to this endless discussion.

RC

Yes -- I think that pretty well covers the contrabass family.

Surely with bass tubas you could fit them into:
small -- solo instruments primarily -- 182F, 621F
medium -- should work in a medium sized orchestra or in a quintet okay (insert your choice here -- I tend to think Firebird / Norwegian Star)
large -- definitely good for large orchestra and definitely good for quintet and brass choir (822F, Pre-PT B&S, Hilgers 6/4 ...)
???
Of course there are differences between a 6/4 Hilgers or a B&S and, say a 822 in sound quality. Not sure about quantity, however.

Oh -- and re: Rick's list --> is that a 5.5/4 Kaiser or a 6.2/4 Kaiser ...???


(quack quack)

[Rick Denney]

great system, but what about bass tubas? seems to me like mw says everyone of it's f horns is a 6/4. while other manufactures don't use it at all for basses.

Bass tubas have more variable application, it seems to me. They are standard orchestral instruments in Europe but not in America, where they are specialty instruments.

But perhaps this would work well enough:

1. Chamber. Examples: Yamaha 621, Besson 983, Alexander F, MW 281.

2. British Ensemble: Besson 981/2

3. German Orchestral: B&S Symphonie, Rudy Meinl, Willson 3200R, Miraphone 181/281/283, VMI Apollo

4. American Orchestral: B&S PT, 45SLP, Yamaha 822, Willson 3200/3400, MW Kodiak

The main difference between German and American orchestral tubas is whether they act as mini C tubas rather than as maxi F tubas. The British category gets "ensemble" because of the influence of brass bands--the compensating Eb tuba gets used more in brass bands than in orchestras.

Of course, these have nothing to do with where the instrument is played, but for what sound and application it was intended for. I'd be happy to define my 621 as a chamber F and my Symphonie as a German orchestral F.

Any can be used as a solo instrument depending on the literature and the performer's objectives.

Rick "still waiting for the ax to fall" Denney