Complete Newby Looking for Advice

[zootsuitbass]

Hi


What's up with a 3/4? is that size similar to string instruments?


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28576" target="_blank


Thanks for the help.



Aj

[Donn]

What's up with a 3/4? is that size similar to string instruments?

No - it isn't like string bass, where 3/4 is the normal size. Nor is it as well defined. Most models mentioned above are 4/4 size, I'd say. An inexpensive 3/4 tuba would be fine to learn on, and might be very nice to have around - we don't have to tell you what a nuisance a big instrument can be sometimes.

I'm with Bloke up to a point, sousaphone makes all kinds of sense. I'm not so sure that the appearance of the instrument will be immaterial, to audiences or fellow musicians, but he may have interesting ideas about psychedelic paint jobs, depending on how his own experiments in that area went.

Three valves will do just fine, and Bb is the right key. I am a concert pitch type myself, as I think we all tend to be whose instruments are primarily of the bass variety. You will learn that the lowest open note is a Bb, the next higher an F, and so forth. If you chose a C tuba for some reason, those notes would be C, G, etc., and it would be no easier or harder. Except that you'd have an easier time playing with stringed instruments whose open strings are E A D G, etc., where the Bb tuba is more like other wind instruments.

You can play sousaphone sitting down.

If you're lucky, your sousaphone will come with a Conn 2 mouthpiece.

[Dean E]

. . . . the one piece I would add is to read up on cleaning what ever you end up with thouroughly before you really settle down to learn to play it (if it's a used horn). There are some astounding stories of what has come out of old horns that folks have told here....

I agree about checking for obstructions inside a horn.

Two other issues that can make a good (used) horn difficult to play:

1. Leaks
-- a. Valves
-- b. solder joints everywhere
-- c. ill-fitting lower & upper (gooseneck) leadpipes on sousas
-- d. water keys

2. Old horns set up for high pitch (A = 444 or higher) have to be worked on to bring them into modern pitch. The old tuning slides simply cannot be pushed in.

Also, a trip to Baltimore, NJ/NYC, or northern Indiana puts you close to a wide assortment of used instruments and expert personnel. I'm only personally familiar with shops in those three areas. I'm sure there are other great shops elsewhere in the US.

A good introduction to the equipment and technical aspects of the tuba family is found in Harvey Phillips' "Art of Tuba and Euphonium."
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Tuba-Euphoniu ... 0874876826" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Rick Denney]

Lessee...bunch of unanswered questions (not all of which have been articulated...yet).

The King 1241 is an older model with four valves. The three-valve version of the same instrument is a 1240. They have interchangeable bells and can be found with either upright or forward bells. The going rate, in my view, for a playable 1241 is in the $1500 to $2000 range if it doesn't look too bad. They are a bit more with upright bells, and a bit less with forward bells. The 1240 is considerably cheaper.

The 2341 in new, short style with fixed upright bell, is the modern version of this instrument, and it is excellent. That's a great tuba for jazz work if you want something newer and shinier (and more expensive).

Of the older used sousaphone, I prefer the Conn 14K, which is brass but little if any heavier than the 36K fiberglass model. Beyond that, I agree with bloke's advice on that. But I don't like sousaphones for purely ergonomic reasons--my shoulders just aren't shaped right to provide a comfortable place for the instrument to rest. You can get sousaphone chairs that will support the instrument while playing it seated. But I still prefer tubas for most work.

On the subject of pricing, if you buy a used fiberglass sousaphone for $600, you'll be able to sell it for $600 to someone just like yourself when the time comes, if you have maintained it in the same condition. Old sousaphones have depreciated all they are going to. Because of the bias against fiberglass, it may take a bit longer to find a buyer, but I bet not. I'd much rather have an old 36K Conn (made by Conn in the old Conn factory) than a modern anything, even in plastic. The reason to buy a used tuba is that you won't know what you want until you gain some experience, so buy something that is solidly playable and that has withstood the test of time. Then, when you are ready to move on, sell it for what you paid for it. Consider it free rental with a substantial security deposit. Warning: It's not always easy to sell a tuba. They reveal qualities that undermine the motivation to sell them. That's how I ended up with eight of them, even though I still managed to sell a couple.

On the subject of tuba sizes, 4/4 is just a tuba. 5/4 is a big tuba. 6/4 is a really big tuba. 3/4 is a student model, with few exceptions. The 1241 and modern 2341 are 4/4 instruments. The Conn 14K is what I would call a 4/4 sousaphone. There are no standards for these designations and tuba sizes and shapes vary so much as to render them confusing at best. Here are some pictures to give you an idea of the relative sizes:

http://www.rickdenney.com/tubas_compared.htm

On the subject of the pitch of the instrument, stick with Bb. It will fit with the Bb trombone and Bb trumpets in jazz bands, and it will be the cheapest to buy and the easiest to resell at a later time. C tubas are mostly used by pros and pro wannabes, and are thus built and priced for people willing to pay much more. But many jazz tuba players still use Bb instruments. All sousaphones are either in Bb or Eb, with only custom, one-off exceptions. Stick with Bb. You might find a sousaphone for well under a grand or something like a 1241 for well under two grand, but any C tuba at that price will have been backed over by a car. Nobody in the audience (or in the rest of the band) will know or care.

On the subject of accessories, just get a vanilla mouthpiece (an 18 or a Helleberg, as others have recommended), and save the rest of your money for at least a few lessons from a local pro tuba player. As Wade says, lots of tuba players need to double on bass to pay the bills, so you might even be able to trade out bass lessons for tuba lessons. But my advice is to study with a real pro--someone who makes a sound you consider worthy of emulating. Many pros actually like teaching adult beginners--they listen, they have a work ethic, they are fun to talk to, and their checks don't bounce.

If you buy a used tuba, get it chem-cleaned and that will also take care of all the required adjustments, water-key corks, valve felts, and so on. Get some valve oil and slide grease. Apply the valve oil before every session.

One day soon, you will pick up whatever you buy, and you will play a low Bb. For the first time, you'll really feed it air properly, and you'll really nail the frequency of the buzz, and the instrument will resonate the whole house. You'll feel a thrill--you spine will tingle and your hair will stand on end. Be warned: that sound will get inside your head and eat your brain. You'll find yourself yawning at the prospect of playing your string bass.

Rick "afflicted thusly" Denney

[Mark]

Three valves will do just fine, ...

I disagree with this. If you are an experienced musician, you will not be happy with the work you will need to put into playing a 3-valve tuba in tune. Spend the extra money it takes to get 4 valves.

[iiipopes]

One day soon, you will pick up whatever you buy, and you will play a low Bb. For the first time, you'll really feed it air properly, and you'll really nail the frequency of the buzz, and the instrument will resonate the whole house. You'll feel a thrill--you spine will tingle and your hair will stand on end. Be warned: that sound will get inside your head and eat your brain. You'll find yourself yawning at the prospect of playing your string bass.

Rick "afflicted thusly" Denney

Hey! I resemble that remark!

[Rick Denney]

I disagree with this. If you are an experienced musician, you will not be happy with the work you will need to put into playing a 3-valve tuba in tune. Spend the extra money it takes to get 4 valves.

Maybe. But maybe not--lots of experienced guys who play jazz do so on three-valve instruments and never seem to be working that hard. I asked one once about the pitch on the low B, etc., and he said that when playing jazz, he can play any note he wants to.

When playing written music, though, you have to play what's written even if it requires mashing all three valves and pulling a slide three inches. That's when the fourth valve will be more appreciated.

Rick "who's got both" Denney

[imperialbari]

The bass player on this track, at least into my ears, is quite good for a youngster:

http://www.resourceent.com/entertainers ... songID=557

He is somewhat of a preacher sermoning on the virtues of 3 valve plastophones in jazz. But does he follow the tracks he lays out for others?

Hardly!

His playing is rather precise in all aspects, and what does he use as his playing tool? Key of instrument? Number of valves? And some may even be able to tell the player.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[iiipopes]

Re 3-valve instruments: I own one, the Besson comp. When starting back in, I actually looked for a 3-valve first because my pinky is not conducive to a operating a 4-valve instrument. When I finally got the 186, you should see the customization to the spread and alignment of the paddles in all three axes I had to have done to fit my hand.

That said, for overall intonation, my Besson is still my favorite tuba to play, with its comp loops taking care of business. On that horn, you don't play G's and D's as 1+2, because the 1st and 2nd valve slides are tuned true, and therefore 1+2 will be sharp. To the contrary, you play G's and D's on the Besson 3-valve comp with 3rd valve alone, because it is tuned true by itself, and the comp loops take care of adding the necessary tubing for 2+3 and 1+3. 1+2+3 is still a tad sharp, but no more sharp than 1+2 is on a conventional tuba, so immenently lippable. CAVEAT: this is with a THREE valve comp, NOT a four valve comp. On a four valve comp, the comp loops are not engaged unless the fourth valve is down, so anything with the first three valves is no different and have the same tuning characteristics as a conventional three valve tuba.

On the souzy, with its three conventional valves, I have the tried-and-trued, been-done-for-over-100-years-before-4th-valve-became-standard setup of pulling 2nd valve 2 cents flat or so, pulling 1st valve 2 cents flat or so, pulling 3 so 2+3 is a few cents flat, and having the upper loop of the 1st valve tubing made into a slide so I can pull the rest of the way as necessary on 1+3 and 1+2+3.

[Donn]

When playing written music, though, you have to play what's written even if it requires mashing all three valves and pulling a slide three inches. That's when the fourth valve will be more appreciated.

I suspect that some of those great sousaphone players play all the notes of the scale in a perfectly satisfactory way, with only three valves, and furthermore I'd go out on a limb and guess that many of them don't pull slides to do it. I'm sure there are plenty of tuba situations that might not work out so well, but I'm just thinking a person reading this might think that you absolutely must pull a slide out to play B on a 3 valver. Eh, no.

My sousaphone actually has 4 valves (40K), and at the time I thought that was going to be really swell - not so much because it's easier to tune for a -2-4 B than a 123 B, but because it gives you those low notes between E and Bb. Neither is worth the extra weight, let alone the price. (On Eb and F tubas, of course it's a different matter, the 4th valve is a big deal.)

[imperialbari]

On the souzy, with its three conventional valves, I have the tried-and-trued, been-done-for-over-100-years-before-4th-valve-became-standard setup of pulling 2nd valve 2 cents flat or so, pulling 1st valve 2 cents flat or so, pulling 3 so 2+3 is a few cents flat, and having the upper loop of the 1st valve tubing made into a slide so I can pull the rest of the way as necessary on 1+3 and 1+2+3.

Those advocating this type of tuning surely haven't played bass trombone in a band, where they have had to play in unison or in octave with tubas tuned that way. Horrible!

Another approach which I better liked was taken by a phenomenal US military band (very likely the Army Field Band), which I heard on TV from an indoor tattoo in Oslo. They started out with a very beautiful hymn for their fallen comrades. The intonation was remarkably accurate. Except for chords with a low C or low F in the sousaphones. These chord rattled, but at least most of the chords avoided the sense of rumble-in-the-jungle so often associated with tubists giving all 3 slides a fixed pull and then claiming that they will lip anything into tune.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[iiipopes]

Klaus,

With all due respect, the slots on the older horns are wide enough that yes, you do lip them into tune. Even on my 186 I can set my buzz for any pitch within a quarter step either way and have the pitch I need, albeit the resonance starts to suffer at the extreme end of things.

I don't think John Kuhn pulled slides on his sousaphone, but with the recording technology (or lack thereof) of the day, could make his souzy sound more like a whole section of double basses in perfect intonation.

[Rick Denney]

His playing is rather precise in all aspects, and what does he use as his playing tool? Key of instrument? Number of valves? And some may even be able to tell the player.

Yeah, but he has a 3-valve plastic 36K with a very trick paint job that he also uses in addition to his one-of-a-kind C helicon.

Rick "thinking the instruments used by the masters were the result not the cause of their mastery" Denney

[Donn]

just occurred to me, that Mr. Complete Newby might be wondering, at this point, something like "after all this time, why haven't they figured out how to make a tuba play in tune? (what does `compensating' mean?)"

I don't understand myself why one tuba might play better in tune than another - I gather there may be some irreconcilable compromises between tone and intonation in a conical bugle, and some difficulties are to be expected if you expect the higher values in the harmonic series to line up with notes. But in the last page or so, we have mostly been talking about a simpler problem that has to do with the arithmetic of valve combinations.

The note value, or rather the interval, of a valve is a function of the ratio between its own tubing length, and the length of tubing to which it's attached. Let's say the tuba's main bugle is 18 feet long, and you want a valve that will lower the fundamental from Bb to F ... 24 feet, I'm thinking, so that valve must have 6 feet of tubing. This is the normal 4th valve, by the way. Now suppose you had a 5th valve of the same length, and you deploy them both, hoping to achieve a C. Alone, these valves lower the pitch by a fourth, but together, they fall 2 feet short of the length you'd need for that C (32 feet.) From a 24 foot F tube, you need an 8 foot long valve, not 6.

That's sort of an absurd but hopefully illustrative example. The discrepancies are smaller with the shorter valve tubes of the first 3 valves, so it's possible to adjust the valve tuning and fingerings to a compromise that works out pretty close.

Oh yeah, a "compensating" tuba has some extra tubing that depends on combinations of valves, so it doesn't require the above mentioned compromises.