Why do CC tubas cost more....

[Rick Denney]

By going on what has been said:

That means the price of a CC tuba in germany, or a F tuba in england, would probably be even higher than in American, since Germany uses BBb mainly and england (bass tuba wise) mainly uses Eb.

Is there anyone who can verify this

Not if demand is lower.

Of course supply adjusts itself to be balanced with demand. If a maker can't cover their costs with a price the market will support, they just don't make the instrument for that market. That limits supply and prices rise. The cure for high prices is high prices, and the cure for low demand is low supply.

Rick "who may need to find the RickBAT essay again" Denney

[dtemp]

So I am looking on WWBW at the Miraphone 1291 BBb and CC

Both 5 valves

The CC costs more.

Another Example: Conn 56J and King 2341

Same Mold. Conn has a 5th valve added, $4000 difference.

I thought you left.

[Rick Denney]

The development costs for the CC will have be spread across fewer sales, so to recoup those costs, they will have to cost more.

All true. But don't confuse price and cost. The reason they will undertake the project, knowing that costs will be a lot higher, is that the market will support a price high enough to recoup those costs. Any manufacturer who is going to survive in the market will have a target price point before they even start design. Conn-Selmer had that meeting, I'm sure, when they determined that the 2341 had to fit a price point in the 4000s. Having started with that, they then designed the instrument, including making decisions about the level of production finish, so that they could make a profit at that price point.

Pro Bb tubas in Europe cost as much as pro C tubas, because pros buy them and are willing to pay that price. Those particular models are often not sold in the U.S., except on special order (at which time the buyer is making himself a European, in effect), and the models that are sold in the U.S. are made such that they can tolerate a lower price point demanded by the vast majority of Bb tuba buyers here. I don't see any Fafners in American public schools, for example, despite that they are truly great instruments. But I suspect there are a quite a few in the stables of pros in Germany who use Bb when they use a contrabass.

Rick "noting that the difference in price and cost is less a matter of economics and more a matter of accounting" Denney

[brianggilbert]

So I am looking on WWBW at the Miraphone 1291 BBb and CC

Both 5 valves

The CC costs more.

Another Example: Conn 56J and King 2341

Same Mold. Conn has a 5th valve added, $4000 difference.

I thought you left.

Ouch!

[Biggs]

So I am looking on WWBW at the Miraphone 1291 BBb and CC

Both 5 valves

The CC costs more.

Another Example: Conn 56J and King 2341

Same Mold. Conn has a 5th valve added, $4000 difference.

I thought you left.

Alas, that was a short-lived dream.

[NC_amateur_euph]

Rick Denny wrote:
Any manufacturer who is going to survive in the market will have a target price point before they even start design.

Aha - we have now heard from the real world.

I have worked for manufacturers of products sold to commercial (as opposed to governmental) customers whose idea of pricing was:

(calculated incremental cost) x (1 + desired gross margin) = selling price.

To state the obvious, those manufacturers are no longer in business.

Honest pricing is not difficult. Figure out (A) what the market will bear (willing buyer, willing seller). Then figure out (B) what your costs will be (incremental cost, development/tooling, distribution, cost of money, the whole geschmuck). Compare the two. If A is more than B, you have profit before taxes (definitions of terms may vary - you get the idea). If your profit before taxes is more than you could make by parking your money in some relatively safe investment then you may have a business proposition.

You can also sell at a loss (A is less than B) but you'd better understand your reasons for doing so. For example, you could sell your 842 clone at a loss because you know that doing so will increase sales of your 321 clones enough to overcome the loss. Your customers (and accountants and shareholders) will let you know whether you are right or wrong.

Since the manufacturers of the products under discussion (CC and BBb tubas) are presumed to be viable businesses, one can surmise that their price points for their various models were determined more or less as outlined above.

Now back to work to increase my current employer's gross profit.

D "wondering whether those companies gobbled up by the Cyborg knew the values of A and B" L

[iiipopes]

Just one more reason I'm so happy with my 1971 BBb 186 with its retrofit detachable bell.

[Rick Denney]

You can also sell at a loss (A is less than B) but you'd better understand your reasons for doing so. For example, you could sell your 842 clone at a loss because you know that doing so will increase sales of your 321 clones enough to overcome the loss. Your customers (and accountants and shareholders) will let you know whether you are right or wrong.

Furthermore, if you company is publicly traded, you must build your reasons into your business case for producing the product and selling it at a loss. An individual owner can, of course, do anything he or she wants, whether or not it's good business. But publicly traded corporations are not allowed to lose money on purpose. Doing so will run afoul of Sarbanes-Oxley, the SEC, and the Board, even before the shareholders get a crack at you.

Corporations lose money by accident all the time. In every case, it's because they misunderstood the relationship between price and market, or because they could not control costs accordingly.

As I'm sure you know, the relationship between price and market is much more than determining A. It's determining what A will be at a given market share. If I sell a playable tuba for $1000, I'm likely to sell lots of them. I might be able to sell the same tuba for $10,000, though the pool of potential buyers will be tiny by comparison. Even the Thein Brothers have sold tubas at their exotic prices, and they've probably sold as many as they care to make, which means their price is correct.

The big corporations that make tubas, such as Conn-Selmer and JA Musik, will spend considerable energy trying to understand the relationship between market share and price. At some point (or points) in that range of values, they will optimize revenues and profits. It's all guesswork, of course, and the guys who own companies or who make these decisions at the corporate level are the ones who guess well. Even the small makers will have a feel for price points and market share even if they don't have a lot of quantitative market research to back it up. Nobody ignores it.

Rick "suspecting they don't teach this in business class, let alone (freako)nomics" Denney

[Bob Sadler]

Rick "suspecting they don't teach this in business class, let alone (freako)nomics" Denney

They do teach this in business and economics class but in practice it is not a one-time decision in a static environment, it's a set of decisions in a dynamic environment. Consequently, a successful business person is one who "When he feels that bit of turbulence, he knows how to change the way he moves to minimize it and turn it into laminar flow, which reduces drag".

Just thought I'd chime in - your posts have got me thinking today Rick.

Bob Sadler

[Todd S. Malicoate]

My question has been answered about why, because its the worldwide market and the cost price when the horn was made

I have absolutely no idea what this means...can anyone translate?

[MartyNeilan]

lets please close the topic

no.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

lets please close the topic

Now you want to tell the ops how to run the site?

We have some interesting discussions going here which diverted from the main question. I've learned a few things from hearing different perspectives on the world marketplace and economic/marketing principles in general. How dare you try to shut people up because your question was answered. You don't get to decide when the thread ends just because you started it.

But I will give you a bit of credit for saying "please."

EDIT: Oh yeah, James...I would have thought by the fourth page of discussion you would have figured out that the "cost price" when the horn was made has nothing to do with the sale price. If it did, C tubas would be a bit cheaper since they use a bit less in raw materials than equivalent Bb tubas. Weren't you paying attention?

[cjk]

In a business class, they teach basics of supply and demand....not so many specifics
...

I respectfully disagree. If your AP economics class only taught theory but did not challenge you to apply it, then I'm sorry, but your class was a waste of time. My college calculus classes were similar wastes of time. Most of my business classes were not. Maybe your class got you through the AP test, but it doesn't sound like you actually learned anything you can use.

I suggest (again) for your own benefit that you take some business classes where you have to think and actually apply concepts.

IMHO, EVERY student in college should have to take introductory courses in economics, marketing, and finance.

Christian, who took many many business classes and has a couple pieces of potentially useful paper to show for it

[Eric B]

http://tinyurl.com/6krbe8

Jane, stop this crazy thing!

[The Big Ben]

In a business class, they teach basics of supply and demand....not so many specifics

I imagine your HS biz teacher is thinking of these words spoken by the immortal Joe Schultz, manager of the 1969 Seattle Pilots, after yet another loss:

"I don't know what happened. I coached so good but they played so bad..."

My question has been answered about why CC tubas cost more, lets please close the topic

Unless you want to work at the tire store forever, you are going to have to learn a few things. Here's one for starters:

"Once the trigger is pulled, you can't make the bullet come back into the gun. Make sure you know what you are shooting at and why."

HTH

[Davy]

My guess would be craftmanship.

Seeing as CC tubas are played by "professionals", it would seem that companies would really work on making the CC tubas "better" that their BBb models; not that the BBb's are inferior, but it may be that CC tubas have more time put into building them because they will mostly be played by people who have "mastered" the Tuba.

Just a thought

[TubaRay]

lets please close the topic

Now you want to tell the ops how to run the site?

Tubashaman(I guess I am talking behind his back. Oh,well.) continues to puzzle me by the things he says. I wonder what his motivation was in this case. Arrogance? Stupidity? Lack of consideration of others? I really don't get it.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

My guess would be craftmanship.

Seeing as CC tubas are played by "professionals", it would seem that companies would really work on making the CC tubas "better" that their BBb models; not that the BBb's are inferior, but it may be that CC tubas have more time put into building them because they will mostly be played by people who have "mastered" the Tuba.

Just a thought

It's a logical thought...it makes perfect sense...but it's not correct.

Contrary to popular belief, there are Bb models that are just as good as their C cousins, made with just as much care and craftsmanship, intended for professional use.

Again, and please pay attention this time, class...C tubas cost more because people are willing to pay more for them. It's that simple.

[TubaRay]

C tubas cost more because people are willing to pay more for them. It's that simple.

Say it isn't so. Say it isn't so.

[TubaRay]

[

My question has been answered about why CC tubas cost more, lets please close the topic

Unless you want to work at the tire store forever, you are going to have to learn a few things. Here's one for starters:

"Once the trigger is pulled, you can't make the bullet come back into the gun. Make sure you know what you are shooting at and why."
HTH

Well stated. You have to wonder if he will be able to read it.