Holton?

[funkhoss]

I want to offer my sincerest apologies to those reading this thread.

I read Tubenet fairly frequently, but I hardly ever post (except to sell a few odds and ends every once and a while). However, I saw this topic yesterday and I thought, "The tuba in that video looks just like my Holton Eb except with enough tubing to pitch it in Bb. I saw another tuba just like it on eBay a few weeks ago and thought the same thing. Perhaps if I posted a picture and some information it might be of interest to those reading this topic."

Boy, was I wrong.

I thought that Tubenet was intended to be a place to discuss low brass instruments and playing (something that I truly enjoy doing but rarely get a chance to do on a daily basis).

Please forgive me.

Sam

[imperialbari]

I want to offer my sincerest apologies to those reading this thread.

I read Tubenet fairly frequently, but I hardly ever post (except to sell a few odds and ends every once and a while). However, I saw this topic yesterday and I thought, "The tuba in that video looks just like my Holton Eb except with enough tubing to pitch it in Bb. I saw another tuba just like it on eBay a few weeks ago and thought the same thing. Perhaps if I posted a picture and some information it might be of interest to those reading this topic."

Boy, was I wrong.

I thought that Tubenet was intended to be a place to discuss low brass instruments and playing (something that I truly enjoy doing but rarely get a chance to do on a daily basis).

Please forgive me.

Sam

You were not wrong in posting. what you found relevant. If people don’t want to read your postings, they are free to skip them.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

Alright, that is the only clip I have seen with that particular upright bell tuba.

If I can find a suitable clip or still to post, he also played a recording tuba sitting in the back when he wasn't playing an upright. From what I remember, that could be a Martin or a Conn 2XJ.

[iiipopes]

These are *tuba* players...not scholars. We drink beer, tell jokes, and needle each other. They/we don't worry about reeds, octave keys, bows, strings, intonation, or self-esteem. Our self-esteem comes from the beer glass and (when playing music) making *other people* look good.

Hey! I resemble that remark! This could be the mission statement of TubeNet.

Thanks, bloke

[Tuba Guy]

These are *tuba* players...not scholars. We drink beer, tell jokes, and needle each other. They/we don't worry about reeds, octave keys, bows, strings, intonation, or self-esteem. Our self-esteem comes from the beer glass and (when playing music) making *other people* look good.

First of all, amen. Also from knowing that we have the biggest horns.
Second, on a relative subject, I learned over the summer that trumpets actually have an octave key...it's called a bicep.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Even Dan has to supply reasons for posterity.

All right ,
In addition to the bell flair and throat (already noted), the York's second wrap of branches ( No. 3 and 4) loop behind the largest top bow (No. 2), not in front as does the Holton and Martin BBb models of this configuration. Holton's top bow also had a tighter wrap then the 6/4 York BBb.

Holton's 2nd valve top tuning slide ports bends away from the bell and the similar model York toward it. Holton and York 3rd slides are very similar but at 1:34 in the Youtube clip, the ferrule between branches No.3 and 4 shown, is the smooth plain pattern found on Holtons going way back.

The York also tends to have a pair of large braces that go from the bell-stack to the first valve slide but not the Holton.

More for posterity: All the Martins I've seen from that era used special tubing bits with thumbscrew locks.

Additionally for the record, if it were a Martin (we know its not) this kind of design would be to early to employ mouth-pipe bits. Also noted by Rick, Martin's basses had the squarish branches, this is a style that goes way back to there earliest models. This one has the nice smooth bends in the branches that are found on the Holton.

I do hope that is enough detail for posterity. Happy New Year all!

Daniel C. "not knowing Head Master Denny would be having a pop-quiz on this thread" Oberloh

[funkhoss]

Your post very strongly implied that you were identifying it as an Eb tuba, and you made no reference to it being "like an Eb, but built in Bb".

Again, I apologize. The fact that the tuba in the video was pitched in Bb seemed so blatantly obvious to me that I deemed it unnecessary to mention. My post was directed more towards these comments:

Makes no sense to me that there is a second page of posts... didn't Dan Oberloh already say this is a Holton?

Isn't the tnfj fantastic?

No, my friends... The discussion will continue, because neither Arnold Jacobs nor Jehovah have yet identified this instrument

Anyways, I still stand by what I said in my first post, and if I need to provide more evidence and reasoning to support my statements (for whomever may be interested, if anyone), I will.

As for why I think that the tuba in the video is a Holton:

The tuba in the video shares several identical features with the Holton tuba that I have in my possession. Because there are several different close-up shots of the horn in question in the video, I can identify these features with a high degree of certainty. These include:

-identical valve top-caps and finger buttons
-identical valve braces
-identical size and shape of the tubing "knuckles" exiting the valve ports
-identical receiver and receiver-brace
-identical bow-guards (which themselves are of a design unique to Holton tubas)
-identical body ferrules (which again are unique in that they are completely smooth without any "grooves")

The weight of all these identical features combined provide an almost overwhelming argument in favor of the fact that this is indeed a Holton tuba.

As for my "E-flat/B-flat" hypothesis:

"like an Eb, but built in Bb"

Actually, this is not what I am arguing at all. Rather, I think my Holton is "like a Bb, but built in Eb." There is a subtle difference. Basically, I think the horn in the video is a 4/4 sized Bb like a (current) King 2341, as opposed to a 6/4 Bb like a Conn 2XJ. I have come to this conclusion because of three different lines of reasoning.

The first of these is historical. King also made "monster" tubas in Eb and Bb from the teens through the thirties. These instruments shared the same valve section and had very similar bells and bottom bows. However, the King "monster" Bb during this time was only a 4/4 sized horn (.687" bore, 20" bell). I know because I have recently played one (four-valve front action) that was built in 1920. (And, for what its worth, my Holton Eb and that King Bb had bells and bottom bows that were nearly identical in size except for the bell diameter--19" vs. 20".) For reference, please see this page from a 1919 King catalog.

If King made "Bb sized" Eb tubas during this time period, then it is possible that Holton did as well.

My second line of reasoning is comparative. This is the Holton Bb tuba that I saw on eBay:

4108.jpg

This tuba dates to 1911 (mine is 1926) and has a 19" bell (same as mine). From this picture (and the others on eBay) I can say fairly certainly that this horn does have the same valves, bell, and bottom bow as mine. This means that Holton at one point made similar sized Eb and Bb tubas in the same manner as King.

However, I still have not demonstrated that this tuba from eBay and the one in the video are the same. In fact, several objections could be raised:

-the eBay tuba is a high-pitch conversion, while the one in the video was built in low-pitch
-the tubas have different third valve wraps
-the body tubing is wrapped differently

My guess is that Holton may have redesigned (re-wrapped?) their Bb tubas at some point (perhaps when Holton started building only low-pitch tubas?).

My third line of reasoning is forensic. If for the moment we accept the hypothesis that the tuba in the video and my tuba share the same valveset and bottom bow, then some observations can be made. First, the proportion of the size of the valves in comparison to the size of the bell seems to be the same as my horn. Second, the valveset on the tuba in the video seems to be mounted slightly higher (1"-2") than the valveset on my tuba (the leadpipe seems to be slightly closer to the bell and the valves seem to be closer to the body tubing). If this is the case, then the length of the first valve tubing seems to be just the right length in comparison to my tuba, given that the slide would need to be lengthened for a Bb horn (this is most clearly seen when the position of the first valve slide is viewed in relation to the bell ferrule). If this is the case, it also rules out the possibility that this is a 6/4 horn.

I am a fairly tall person (6'3") and my Holton Eb is exactly the right size for me to play comfortably. My fiance is 5'8", and it is nearly too tall for her play when she rests it on her chair. If the tuba in the video were a 6/4 horn with the same proportions as my Eb AND with a higher receiver, then it would be impossible for pretty much any human being to play while rested on a chair.

Conclusion:

In summary, I think that the tuba in the video is a 4/4 sized Holton Bb tuba, similar in size to a King 2341 or Conn 56J C-tuba.

And here's one final thought:

These are *tuba* players...not scholars. We drink beer...

Our self-esteem comes from the beer glass...

I play the tuba. I also happen to dislike beer and consider myself a scholar.

Regards,

Sam Funkhouser

[The Big Ben]

Geez... Showed *you*, Bloke. Howja like *them* apples?

Jeff "Scholar who also drinks beer. And other things." Benedict

[sailn2ba]

Ha! The mouthpiece. . . looks just like my Frank Holton, Elkhorn Wis 52.

[Liberty Mo]

I'm not expert, but it looks like Clarence Karella's Lyon Healy Holton.

[Rick Denney]

Daniel C. "not knowing Head Master Denny would be having a pop-quiz on this thread" Oberloh

[adopting his most obnoxious head-master tone...] Don't roll your eyes at me, young man.

Okay, back to regular Rick: This is sorta like a game a buddy of mine and I have played as we traveled together by car. We would find a classical music station in whatever city we were driving through, and identify the music before the radio announcer did. Much of time, we knew the piece directly. When we didn't, though, we earned bonus points for putting the puzzle pieces together: period, style, instrumentation, etc. Often we narrowed it down to a composer, even composers whose sounds are not highly characteristic of themselves.

The process was as fun as the conclusion, and indeed more fun.

So, since we have not heard from the guy who bought the instrument new (and obviously we won't), we are all putting puzzle pieces together. These pieces will help the next guy who sees a tuba on ebay being sold by "I don't know anything about tubas" (speaking of rolling one's eyes) and needs to track it down based on an archive search, without necessarily starting a big discussion about something he might want to bid on, or without privately troubling an authority he doesn't know. In other words, that detail is completely useful.

Rick "a scholar who doesn't drink (much) beer, but who likes tuba players because they don't usually take themselves too seriously" Denney

[Tuba Guy]

Just a suggestion...everyone chill and let it go? What was said in the past on here is the past, there is no need for this discussion to get to this point...

[tofu]

[tubatooter1940]

I really wish I had an aunt just like yours.
She'd be my guitar hero too.