Besson 983 piston problems

[TMurphy]

Isn't it funny how - plastic lasts an eternity in our landfills or oceans, but only a few months in a Tuba - hmmm?

Robo

I'm no great fan of the valve guides on the 983, but personally, I prefer the plastic guides over metal ones. In fact, I had the guides on the King 2341 I used to own converted from metal to plastic. They're much quieter, plus I'd rather have the plastic valve guides wear out, then have metal guides wear down the valve casing on my horn.

To the OP...I've had no trouble at all with sticking on my 983. Since, as you said, it is a school owned horn, is it possible that there is a tiny dent in the valve casing??? THat would cause major sticking problems, for sure. The valves could also need a lapping, as was suggested. Whatever the case, having a competent repair tech look at it is the best course of action. If you don't know of any near you, I'm sure someone here can recommend someone.

-Tim Murphy, loving the fact that Dillon's is less than an hour away.

[jon112780]

I've never had any problems with the valves on my 983. I just got into the habit of putting oil on all the valves before I warmup in the morning (or whenever I first play). I don't wipe down each piston, just pull them out and squirt on some AL CASS.

Whenever I have to replace the valve guides, I usually have to take a razor and shave (maybe 1/16") off the outside of the guide, otherwise they slow down. I do understand the tolerences are extremely close, so the smallest thing might make a difference.

I've given my 983 a bath every couple of years or so; but it's been at least 2 years since I did it last, but still no problems. Maybe I just got a good one, but I'm never selling mine, it just plays way too good!

[jeopardymaster]

Mine used to stick occasionally too, though mostly only when I needed them not to. I changed 2 things at the same time.

1) You know those spongy little plastic dampers sitting at the bottoms of the valves above the springs? I removed them.
2) I quit using Blue Juice.

I don't know which made more of a difference, but the problem went away.

[Tom Holtz]

I've had torque totally lock up the first valve on my 983. It wasn't from the manufacturing, though, and I doubt it is in your case either. On an airline flight, the case took a shot on the side. No visible marks on horn or case, but the first valve didn't move at all. Couldn't even pull it out of the casing. Took me a few minutes to figure out that the top fourth-valve tuning slide that returns into the first valve was pushed in toward the leadpipe/top branches. Since that slide also rests against the leadpipe, there was a lot of torque on the first valve case. Played an entire jazz festival pushing that slide laterally, away from my body, to keep the first valve moving. Hand hurt like hell by Sunday night, but I got through it.

The solution was to unsolder the tuning slide from the horn to release the tension. Had the work done here in D.C. when I returned from that festival. Cameron lined the slide up nice and true, may have also had to cleaned the valve and the casing, and it was better than new. Haven't had a lick of problems since then, and she's only had one bath. She's due for another, and soon, but the valves are great.

Since it's a school horn, I strongly suspect that the big fourth-valve tuning slide took a hit somewhere, not necessarily by you. Still, Jeff Conrad's solution is essentially the same as mine, although the leadpipe may only be half the issue. If moving the leadpipe doesn't solve the tricky valve, the torque may be in the fourth-valve slide right next to the leadpipe.

[Dan Schultz]

Matt Walters is the one who finally diagnosed my 983. ......

I'm still curious in what ways the keyslots in that horn were proclaimed to have been cut wrong. Were they too shallow? .... too narrow? .... wavy? .... rough? What was it that the factory did to cause the problems?

[Dan Schultz]

Well! As far as plastic valve guides being quiter who can tell over the BOOM! of the big bass drum!

However, with all due respect - I am curious as to what our resident technicians and resident geniuses have to say about this 983 valve sticking problem, as opposed to us owners who have tried to do first one thing and then another.

What say you Brother Tinker?

I don't know about the 983, but I can tell you that there have been some changes to the guide system on the new Prestige euphs being built in the Meinl factory. The stems now have an undercut to make sure the valve guide does not raise off the top of piston on the down stroke. The guides now slide down over the stem and 'snap' into place. They haven't changed the guide. I just bought a new batch of guides for the Prestige. The guides for the 4th piston appear to be off of the original tooling but the ones for valves 1, 2, & 3 are definitely off of new tooling and look almost 'prototype' in design.

There are really too many things that cause 'sticky' valves to diagnose problems sight unseen. Once everything is clean... including a vigorous cleaning of inside of the leadpipe to eliminate all possibilities of dirt... the first thing I check are problems with the valve guides. If all is well and the parts are OK... I look at the condition of the felts. Besson valves are machined very closely... as are Yamaha valves. Even a shred of lint from a degrading felt can cause problems. This generally applies to new horns. Those with a little wear on the pistons are a little more forgiving. Sometimes the valve circuits are slightly deformed... causing distortion at the casing ports. This kind of problem can also show up on new horns direct from the factory. This sort of difficulty can come up with temperature changes, too. There could also be a very small 'ding' in the valve casing. The piston could work OK when cold and cause problems after warming up.

You've received some pretty good advise here already. If you have everything 'squeaky' clean it's time to take the horn to a competent repairman.

[TubaMaster1989]

Hi James,

How old is your horn? I'm looking at one of the new 983's as a possible purchase and I don't want to purchase it if there is a history of valve issues.

Just curious: Have you ever switched valve oils while owning the horn? I have found that if you switch between a synthetic and non-synthetic oil, it will create a residue and gum the valves up like cement.

Also, try a valve alignment kit. May I suggest the one by Alan Baird of the New York Phil? One of my collegues has used this kit and seen quite a difference. However, this was on a Gronitz CC tuba, but it may work for you. If this doesn't work you might want to have it looked at by a repair facility. There is a possibility that the valves that were put on are just a defective set. My professor endorses these instruments and I don't believe that he has encountered these problems.

Best of luck!

[Dan Schultz]

Free repair lesson for the day...

The key way looked as though the tool wasn't full in position and that it was allowed to chatter and bounce around as it cut....

Many times when I would push down the valve it would cause the valve guide to rise up and bind. Putting small screw into the guide and a threaded hole on the top of the piston was an option...

OK. I understand the situation now. I've seen lots of key slots on many different brands of horns that exhibit the same characteristics. Metal-working tools do become dull and can easily cause the cut to be rough. A chip on the tool from a previous cut can cause that condition. That's normally a pretty easy problem to resolve. A hone taken to the guide slot should smooth things up without taking off enough material to make much difference in port alignment. Guide slots that simply aren't cut deep enough are also a problem. Most often, there is a small radius in the corners of the slot that needs to be 'cleaned up'.

However.... the situation with the valve guide rising up should have been fixed in the latest versions of the Bessons since production has been moved to Meinl. As I explained earlier... a retaining groove has been added to the valve stems to hold the guides down into place. Valve guides by their very nature tend to rub one side of the slot on the way down and the opposite side on the way back up.... depending of which direction the spring is wound. There will always be some form of contact with the slot no matter how you press down the finger button.

The repairman who worked on your Besson probably did not have the new stems available to him at that time. That's why he suggestion using a screw through the guide. Besson parts continue to be a problem. The Besson folks are very easy to talk to but I think their hands are pretty much tied while Buffet-Crampon gets their house in order. At least the US parts coordinator now has a REAL US email address instead of a French one!

[Dan Schultz]

If I remember correctly, the horn did have an undercut to retain the guide. Maybe the new ones engage the guide more to retain better.

I was hoping they would dump the whole idea all together as I'm hoping to by one of the new ones...

The old style stems did have a slight undercut. The new euph stems have a very pronounced step on them. The new design seems OK and they have also improved the euphonium main tuning slide 'kicker'. The slide can now be removed by just 'popping' the linkage off instead of having to remove a screw. If they keep 'fiddling' with stuff, I suppose they'll eventually get it right. I'm just hoping Buffet-Crampon get their brass parts program in order in my lifetime!

[Dan Schultz]

German-made piston tuba

He's referring to a Besson, which are English made.

On the contrary. These days the high-end Bessons are being made in Germany by Meinl. The low-end student Besson lines are being made in India.... under the supervision of Walter Nirschl, I think.

[iiipopes]

Until the very last before the bankruptcy, when some parts were imported and assembled in the UK at the "new" factory, and when the student lines were farmed out to an Indian factory, yes, the London branch of the Besson family from @1840 on, used to be 100% English, as were Boosey, Hawkes, Distin, and a few others. From @1948 on, after B&H bought Besson, everything was done at the famous Edgeware Road factory until it was closed down due to "modernisation."

[Dan Schultz]

I am reading that somes Bessons 983's and other Besson models, appear to have been made or partly "farmed-out" such as valve sections etc. Does anyone have a site where one could refer - or a listing of serial numbers/dates of manufacturing that one could check against - for varification where and when their horn was manufactured. This would be helpful information for us all.

Brother Tinker - my key-ways appear to be wavy as if cut by a drill or some such tooling. Should they be smooth as my other tubas??

Thanks respectively,

Robo

Buffet-Crampon... owners of the Besson lines has not been very forthcoming with information and parts up to now have been VERY difficult to get. That being said... I think it's hard to tell who's making what these days. I'm sure that even the Germans, who seem to have held on to fine craftsmanship and tradition much longer than others, are beginning to purchase components from obscure sources.

Valve guide slots are milled or broached. As in any machining process, there is the possibility of delivering a crummy finish due to dull tools or improper feeds and cutter speeds. The finish inside those slots are going to vary a bit due to a number of variables. That being said.... YES... those slots should be reasonable smooth. If not, they can cause various problems including the premature failure of valve guides. Ideally, the valve guide and the valve guide slot should both be equally smooth.

[Yosef: Tubist]

School horn?, Piston valves?, maybe it just has bent valve stems?