The Elephantine Rant of the Day - Bags and Cases

[averagejoe]

Uh, how on Earth did you decide that my post (which one, BTW?) was "rude"??? Seriously? Is that a reading comprehension thing? (Oh, now THAT was rude!)

I was referring to your original post. I said that it was rude because that was my honest impression. I thought your wording was heavy handed. If making fun of my opinion gives you the jollies then go right ahead, the bottom line was that I agreed with you and actually want to take your advice.

But to be rude implies a target for that rudeness. To whom, specifically, was I rude? Your agreeing with me does not make your label of my post any less inappropriate. I am glad you agree with me, but I attacked no one. I was not heavy handed. I spoke truth, based on many, many hours of unbending horns for a living. I posted in frustration due to the incident that occurred recently that was truly obtuse and inconsiderate. I was writing in response to that incident and not to anyone here specifically. How was I rude? Uncouth? No. Inelegant? No. Offensive? Maybe, but to whom was I offensive? Do you remember that part of my post? It was pretty darned clear what I was talking about to everyone else. No one else felt it necessary to call me names. I said that certain decisions are STUPID or FOOLISH. Do you agree with that? You just said that you agreed with me. So are you too being rude?

What gives?

Sorry. I thought it was rude because you said that people were making stupid decisions knowing full well that many people use gig bags. You obviously had no ill intent so I apologize. Thank you for the information, I really am going to stop using my cordura bag.

[imperialbari]

And Wade was even kind enough not to mention the brand of cases causing problems most persistently.

Klaus

[TUBAD83]

You know, if you buy a Monette or a Schilke trumpet, its going to come with a very high quality case. Yamaha is the only company that I'm aware of that includes a case with their tubas...its NOT optional AND they tend to be of decent quality. I have yet to see a decent Mirafone or MW tuba case (if they do exist please let me know) The Mirafone case for the 186 I had in college literally fell apart and it was only 5 years old--how can a company that builds such fine instruments have such crappy cases?? If you're going to ask for thousands of dollars for these horns at least provide a high quality case (if $6K+ doesn't scare a buyer off what difference is a few hundred more going to make??)

A good hard case is a must guys...because sooner or later you WILL need it.

JJ

[pgym]

ALL manufacturers sell cases or their tubas.

TE says the MTS case "fits the 202 like a glove"

Yeah ... a baseball glove.

[jonesbrass]

. . . I have yet to see a decent Mirafone or MW tuba case (if they do exist please let me know) The Mirafone case for the 186 I had in college literally fell apart and it was only 5 years old--how can a company that builds such fine instruments have such crappy cases?? If you're going to ask for thousands of dollars for these horns at least provide a high quality case (if $6K+ doesn't scare a buyer off what difference is a few hundred more going to make??) . . .

JJ

I had an original Miraphone hard case for my 188 - definitely Miraphone and definitely designed specifically to hold that model. Had wheels and a tow handle, too.

[sloan]

I have a good hard case for my King - that I have never used. Well, that's not quite right - when I bought my car, I took the case to the dealer and made him wrestle it into the car to make sure it would fit. That's the last time it was in the car. The King lives in a Cronkhite (cordura) bag. In the bag, it fits behind the rear seats in my VW GTI - in the case, I'd have to fold down at least 2 (probably all 3) of the seats.

but...I don't regret the purchase one bit. This weekend I'm traveling to a last-minute-surprise gig in Providence, RI. I'm planning on taking my Yamaha 621 BBb (because I don't think I'll be the only tuba there, and the Yamaha is now officially my "traveling tuba") - but I might have decided (actually...might still decide, up until Thursday morning) to take the King. Having the case sitting at the ready in my basement justifies the cost (for me). The King case offers better protection than the Yamaha case - but the Yamaha case is not oversized (for a musical instrument) on the airplane, and (more important) will fit in the rental car at the destination.

I also have a Cronkhite (leather) bag for the Yamaha - but rarely find a use for it. The factory case is no larger (it seems) than some euph cases I've seen. And...(is this unusual?)...the leather seemed to promote tarnish. I've been letting it air out for about a year now.

Now, about my 1895 (estimated) Eb helicon... I have an Altieri bag for it - but no case. I guess I was a fool for not insisting on a "factory case" when I bought it. Anyone know where I can get a "factory case" for it? How about a "custom case". It would be nice if the case cost less than the helicon. If there's some boutique custom-case company out there that can create a decent hard case (no need for Anvil or even Walt Johnson level protection), I'd be willing to pay for it. If you know of someone in this business, feel free to point them at me. Nothing would be cooler than showing up at a gig with an antique horn in a space-age case. What I have in mind is something like the Eastman case my son has for his 1950's King 2B straight tenor peashooter trombone (the difference is that his 2B is probably worth more than my helicon). and...why does spellcheck object to "helicon"?
Wait...spellcheck objects to "spellcheck". Oh dear.

[pgym]

I also have a Cronkhite (leather) bag for the Yamaha - but rarely find a use for it. The factory case is no larger (it seems) than some euph cases I've seen. And...(is this unusual?)...the leather seemed to promote tarnish. I've been letting it air out for about a year now.

Most commercial leather tanning and dying chemicals include significant amounts of sulphur, which reacts with silver to form silver sulfide, aka tarnish. So, no, it's not at all unusual for a leather gig bag to promote tarnish.

Pgym ... who ended up buying a cordura gig bag instead of a leather one for that very reason.

[Wyvern]

My car is my hard case.

I think that also applies to me. I transport my tubas around in gig bags 99% of the time using the car and to date have NEVER sustained any serious damage. My Neptune is over 3 years old and in that time has only suffered a couple of very minor dings, both while out being played.

The only time I ever use a hard case, is when the tuba is going on public transport and out of my hands, but even the PT-3 in hard case is a struggle to lift and get into the car. No point in getting a hard case for the Neptune, because I could simply not use it.

[pgym]

Oh, and it is not sulphur (chromium sulfate) so much as the chromic acid (in our world called "bright dip") used in tanning that causes the black tarnish to appear so quickly. (Or at least this is what I was told at a local tannery a few years back when I was looking for a source of black glove leather that would not tarnish my silver tuba.)

Sorry, elephant: your local tannery may know the tanning process, but they apparently don't know much chemistry:

1)Tarnish is Silver Sulfide, the chemical composition of which is Ag2S. Chromic acid (CrO3) neither contains sulphur nor is it a catalyst for the formation of Ag2S.

2) Chromic acid is a passivator, i.e., it reduce the chemical reactivity of a metal surface. As such, residual chromic acid in the leather would act to INHIBIT rather than promote tarnish.

3) While an item stored in contact with vegetable tanned leather may not tarnish as quickly as one stored in contact with animal- or mineral-tanned leather, the tanning agent is irrelevant if the hide was limed (dehaired) with a sulphur-based compound (typically, sodium sulfide, sodium hydorsulfite, arsenic sulfide, calcium hydrosulfide, or sodium sulphydrate). Further, liming and tanning, regardless of the liming and tanning agent, break down and release sulphur compounds, particularly disulfides, that are present in the amino acids in the leather, so even if the hide was limed with a non-sulfurous compound and tanned with a vegetable tannin, there will still be free sulfides present in the leather that can react to the silverplating.

While chemically tanned leather is one possible vehicle for the introduction of sulphur into contact with a silverplated instrument, atmospheric sulphur—particularly in the form of byproducts of petroleum combustion—is a far more ubiquitous vehicle.

[sloan]

Now, the Reunion Blues leather euph bags (made in China) have had a long history (okay, at least for several years now) of causing very bad tarnish on silver euphoniums. But I have never heard of a Cronkhite-made bag causing tarnish. I would call him, Ken. How old is the bag? And it is a Cronkhite and not an RB - correct? As my father-in-law says: That ain't right!

Yup - relatively new (say, within the last 3 years?) bag purchased (almost) directly from Cronkhite. Very nice bag, I'm not really complaining. I was also a bit disappointed that it didn't come with a music pouch (I just love the one on my cordura bag for the 2341) - but I suppose the 621 is so small there's not room for one! Any suggestions on speeding up the "airing out" process? When the case arrived, I put the 621 in it and it sat there for a year. It came out very funky. Ask bloke - he made it bright again.

On the rest of this thread...looks like I'm the only tuba signed up for an orchestra alumni gig (and I'm not even an alum of the orchestra - I was a bandie). So...I'm flying the King 2341 in it's mint-condition case - 4 legs in all on "Delta-partner" airlines. According to Delta's website the case is NOT oversize or overweight FOR A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT. I had to change my car reservation to get enough luggage space - but I can't see attempting to be the only tuba in any kind of orchestra with just the 621. Most people who've heard me play will probably doubt that I can handle the job anyway, but...we'll see. Going to your 40th reunion brings certain privileges.

Maybe the program will be heavy on Beethoven?

[Tundratubast]

The old Bessons' came with a factory hard case, good cases nice fit, wheels, two handles, four sorta/could be locked latches. Wade, is right, why wouldn't you expect a good quality hard case with an expensive quality horn. What's another $500-$750 after you've already spent, $5-$15+K plus taxes, freight, travel to test the horn, and a tuba stand, so you don't drop it and embarass yourself during rehersal. Get the case and be safe. The quality gig bag is second on the luxury item wish list.

I'm happy to have my hard case, the sheet rock and paint stains on the bell end from stairwells are tell tale signs of, oh ****, you never know how careful you are really being, or just how narrow those turns on the back stairs are at the hall. Get the hard case and be safe.

[ken k]

So do you prefer silver plated or lacquered cases with rotory or piston latches?



k

[lgb&dtuba]

Seeing someone's elementary school-aged kid kicking your tuba in its gig bag at a rehearsal at a church is shocking. Even more shocking (and disappointing) is when you run over to stop the nasty brat that the dingbat, permissive parent who is ruining their kid on a daily basis yells at you for asking them to stop and picking up your tuba. These people exist and are EVERYWHERE. The heaviest gig bag you can get will minimize the damage unless the kid is just trying to kill the tuba, in which case only a hard case will do. If you gig regularly in churches where such awful (usually very affluent) people are members this WILL happen to you one day. It is only a matter of time. A padded, nylon sock on your tuba will do NOTHING to stop such a nasty little kid. And forget about getting the snotty parents of such a monster ever paying for repairs, certainly not to the state where you cannot tell that the monster damaged your horn.

Kick one of these, you little bast%^&*



That's what my tuba travels in when I know it will be accessible by the public. I did catch a kid standing on it once.

[DonnieMac]

Did anyone mention "speed bumps" vs gig bags? I was getting some strange dents in the bottom bow of a Hirs CC and I wondered how come. It rode in a ReUnion Blues leather gig bag but in the back of a Mini Cooper (rear seats folded down). A fellow tubist pointed out the speed bumps problem. He had a bag of peanuts on the floor of his SUV and on this he rested his horn. You know, that worked for me too because I am wont to take speed bumps a bit too fast.

[TUBAD83]

So do you prefer silver plated or lacquered cases with rotory or piston latches?



k

Rotary latches in 24K GOLD of course.

JJ

[Rick Denney]

To defend such a decision is idiocy.

Wade, you know I love you. But that statement is an ad hominem attack and not a reason.

All designs are made to fulfill some set of requirements. Those requirements vary by application. Some examples:

1. The case shall withstand minor scrapes that apply up to 1 pound of external force on the tuba per square inch over a 6-square-inch area. (This is similar to brushing--not banging into--a door frame).

2. The case shall withstand a 4-foot/second (walking speed) impact with the edge of a door.

3. The case shall withstand being dropped from a distance of 1 foot.

4. The case shall withstand being dropped from a distance of 3 feet.

5. The case shall protect the tuba under a 10G shock.

6. The case shall support an external force of 100 pounds applied anywhere and at any angle to the exterior of the case.

These requirements progress from normal use in an adult environment to manhandling by airline gorillas.

Then, there are other requirements:

7. The case shall fit in a passenger car.

8. The loaded case shall weigh less than 40 pounds.

9. The case shall be provided with wheels that roll over flights of 7" steps. (Kinda hard to fulfill that requirement!)

10. The case shall include handles to permit all loading and usage activities by one person.

11. The case shall include additional carrying mechanisms to permit carrying two of them at the same time.

The fact is that if you need to fulfill requirements 5 and 6, you will NOT be able to fulfill requirements 7 through 11.

There is risk no matter what you do. Prudent people balance the risk against the requirements. After all, the best protection for a tuba is not taking it out of the house, but even that imposes some risk. If you must take it out of the house (and we all must), then you have to be able to carry it to where you need to go. It doesn't matter how good the protection is if you can't carry it.

In this part of the country, buildings are built vertically. Stairs are everywhere. Wheels suck (and, yes, I do have some cases with wheels).

Reasonable advice is: If you use a soft gig bag, treat the instrument as if it is uncased. Accidents will still happen.

My car cost more than my tuba, but I still drive.

Rick "who routinely carries a 6/4 tuba and an F tuba up stairs and to performances that require distant parking over unrollable terrain" Denney

[Rick Denney]

That is BS. There are no tubas that are heavier than a small child, and we have all had to carry them for long distances. Children do not cause us to visit the quack. Tubas do not either. But if you are into back non-doctors then you might be looking for another excuse to get a little correction anyway.

The tuba is no heavier than a small child, but a tuba in the sort of case you are advocating is. When I shipped the York Master from Oregon to Virginia by Amtrak, I borrowed a Walt Johnson case from Chuck. The shipping weight was 70 pounds. And when I shipped the empty case back to Chuck, it was 40 pounds. You may not think it's a big deal to carry around a 70-pound cased tuba, but I do.

Of course, for those of us with old instruments, there are few hard-case options. A hard molded-plastic case that fits close enough to my Holton to fit through a door isn't available at any price. The only option is a case designed for generic BATs, which are too big in order to accommodate their generic design, or which are too small (my BBb Holton is really too big for my RB bag--made back when Cronkhite was there--which was designed for grand orchestral tubas). The alternative is a Walt Johnson cases (see above) or a custom gig bag, which only provides--in addition to nothing at all--a handle and a way to carry music without using a hand. Anvil-style cases are pretty in someone else's warehouse, but they won't fit in my house or my car, so they have no efficacy for people like me, as you pointed out.

Rick "who built a hard case once" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

(AND the entire quote above was a shot at Marty for visiting a chiroquackter! They are just another addiction like getting tattoos.) Carrying very heavy tubas in heavy bags will not harm a healthy back. Improperly lifting and carrying them can harm a healthy back.

Don't take this so seriously! Noone here is mad at you! (Well, at least I'm not )
FWIW, I have never been to the "chiroquackter" myself, although I know several low brass players who swear by them and probably wouldn't function without one. Trombone/bass trombone seems to cause far more issues than tuba, I guess because the tuba player is more symmetrical in his playing posture and also has a support for the horn.
This past weekend, in one instance I had to carry my big horn up the stairs and through a parking garage. In another, I had to carry my big horn and a tenor trombone (in a hardcase ) while escorting three children including a two-year-old. The third instance was just taking one horn to one place by myself. Neither of those first two instances would have worked very well in an uber heavy wheeled hardcase.
FWIW, I have never had any back problems (yet ) due to tuba or other instrument related issues. The only time I ever had a problem with my back was... never mind

Interesting to note, virtually all major damage that has been inflicted on my horns in recent years has been done while out of a case / bag - toddler throwing a full sippy cup at bell, different toddler tightening springs until they break, same knocking over horn, still different toddler climbing and jumping on horn, building maintenance opening door to "practice room" hitting bell, careless trombone player putting chair on bell, crazy wife with 3 pound mallet and a vendetta. In all of these instances, a hardcase would have made no difference.

[averagejoe]

I have always wished that quality lightweight hard cases were available with backpack straps in addition to the standard wheels. If Walt Johnson made a case that was an improved version of the Chinese cases that were mentioned in the origianal post I would definitely buy one. Imagine a lightweight hard case with quality construction and some of the functionality of a gig bag. A custom case would be able to use just enough foam to protect the tuba without being excessively bulky. If this was then coated in some fiberglass, not as much as the flight cases mind you, the tuba would be fairly safe. This fantasy case would not be a flight case, it would only be a lightweight and versatile hard case for everyday use. Some padding could be added to where the case meets the back so that when worn as a backpack it would be more comfortable. I may be wrong but this would only be about 15 pounds heavier than a leather bag. Most high school and college players should have no problem with the extra weight.

[lgb&dtuba]

My old Reunion Blues leather gig bag came with backpack straps. I used them exactly once.

I found that they were bad for several reasons. First, they really weren't all that comfortable. Second, the bag pressed hard enough against my back that I was concerned about about denting the horn. Third, carried in that position there was quite a bit of pressure against the rotors and paddles from the bag. Fourth, too easy to bang it into doorways, etc while carrying it.

Instead, I used a light weight folding hand truck and used carabiners through the bag's D-rings to securely attach it. Worked well that way for many years. That's not to say that I didn't pick up a few dents and a bell crease from going off a curb too fast.

It was better than nothing, but no where near the protection of a good hard case. My new tuba came with a good hard case and I've sold the Reunion Blues bag in preference to the hard case.