Bass Trombone

[Donn]

It's always best to have the right tools for the job and even a small mouthpiece on a big horn won't have the right sound for those first parts.

Well, of course. But those of use who are relatively new to the instrument might be a little fuzzy even on what exactly is the job, let alone what tools are right for it. We know it isn't often 1st trombone, but ... I don't know, I just have seen a few accounts of bass trombone players backing off from the 60 size bowls in favor of something that supports the high range better. So their sense of the right tool may be different - as for sure it should be if their lips, teeth etc. aren't all identical - or they're really looking at different jobs, which I think is a more interesting question.

[Donn]

So, tubenet is in consensus that the shilke is the best do-it-all mouthpiece?

If I can, I would like to wreck that consensus. If the best do-it-all mouthpiece isn't the Bach 1 1/2G, it has to be at least a toss-up. Notice how many mouthpiece makers offer a bass trombone mouthpiece called 1 1/2 or 1.5 - it has to be easily the most popular bass trombone mouthpiece, counting all the imitations. I want to try a Schilke 59 one of these days, but I know there are plenty of bass trombone players who don't like that mouthpiece. If I wanted something in the 60 range, I would look for a more modern one, like one of the larger Ferguson models or a Yeo replica. (Well, I would also look at the Marcinkiewicz models, but the above mentioned are supported by more feedback from players. And of course, if I were serious, it would be smart to initiate a conversation with Doug Elliott.)

[rodgeman]

I played a Bach 1 1/2GM when I played full time bass trombone with a Bach Strad 50B3.
I suggested the Shilke 60 as it would be closer to a tuba mouthpiece.
It is a interesting conversation though.

[Tom Mason]

I did my graduate school work on a Bach 50 B3LO and a Schilke 60 for most situations. As I progressed through the program, I usually worked to play all music on one mouthpiece. This worked until I got to a place where I took more show gigs. In some situations, I would go from playing all below the saff in one song, and then Bb1, C2 and so in the next. As I didn't like to carry 2 horns, I found the option of going to the smaller mouthpiece an acceptable option to get the tenor trombone sound.

Secondly, I'm not sold on everybody locking themselves on one mouthpiece as some of the posters imply.
If you are someone who has one horn, and has different playing situations, then I bet you change mouthpieces. The other option is that you don't play with an appropriate sound.

You use what works and gets you through the job.

[joshwirt]

I really like my setup of the past 5 years....a Getzen 1052FDR (with the #3 leadpipe). The horn has paid for itself a few times and works well with a section of Edward's, Bach's or Conn's. I have played it with big bands, brass ensembles, brass quintets, opera and symphony orchestras and it always gets compliments. Players seemed surprised its a stock Getzen...and not something more expensive or tricked-out.

I also recently acquired a Laskey 95D and have found it to be a great mouthpiece from top to bottom for me (a tuba player who sometimes pretends to play trombone when people ask him to for $$$$) and my Getzen. Previously, the mouthpiece I used to great success was a Ferguson Jeff Reynolds L (which I still have and still like a lot), but I find the Laskey is easier for my airstream and closer to a tuba mouthpiece.

IMHO, this is possibly the best 'bang for the buck' in the NEW INSTRUMENT market.

Good luck!

-Josh Wirt

[Donn]

Secondly, I'm not sold on everybody locking themselves on one mouthpiece as some of the posters imply.

Even if I implied that, I hope no one would listen to me! But I think in the present case, we're talking to someone who hasn't even started playing bass trombone. Where, I'm just thinking it would be common sense to pick one or another of the most common middle of the road mouthpiece models and learn to play it reasonably well. I guess that's locking yourself in, but I reckon at my stage in the process I'm really better served by focusing on what it takes to get the sounds I need out of the mouthpiece I have, since I'm a long way from exhausting that potential.

On tuba I suppose our situation is a little different - the extreme low end of the range is clearly exotic and difficult regardless of equipment, so a middle-of-the-road mouthpiece doesn't come with the strong sense of a sacrifice in range. With bass trombone it's super easy to slap a tuba mouthpiece on there and play right along with the contrabass tuba. So I'm tempted myself to get something big like that (60, 1G, etc.) and do the slide tuba thing. But I think the 60 haters are trying to say that's a limiting way to look at the instrument.

I guess maybe the question is, is there a "cash register" on the bass trombone, and where is it? Given that everyone would love to hear a strong sound all across the range, and anyone can find examples of really exposed, important parts all over that range, still is there an octave in the range that's used a lot and particularly expected to sound great?

[normrowe]

I guess maybe the question is, is there a "cash register" on the bass trombone, and where is it? Given that everyone would love to hear a strong sound all across the range, and anyone can find examples of really exposed, important parts all over that range, still is there an octave in the range that's used a lot and particularly expected to sound great?

[/quote]

Bass trombone range is all over the place. In the classical repertoire, a few examples are the opening of Bartok's "Miraculous Mandarin Suite" which has a bass trombone solo involving mostly the Bb below middle C and the Bb an octave lower. Then there's his infamous gliss in his "Concerto for Orchestra" that goes from the B below the staff to F at the bottom of the staff. In the "Farandole" movement of Bizet's "L'Arlesienne Suite #2" while the 1st and 2nd trombones are playing repetitive half notes, the 3rd takes on the melody, dropping a third for some harmony, and repeating that which takes it up to a high A a couple of times. In swing band music, there's also a lot of range expected. A fair amount of more recent pieces bring out the stuff near the bottom of the staff down to the pedal register, but will expect the bass trombone to play above the staff as well. I've had to play high Ab's in swing band repertoire as a bass trombonist. Show tune music often pulls out all the stops: wide range, every key imaginable, tricky technique, etc.

[Tom Mason]

Sorry, but Donn wrote that quote about the "cash register" . Please be careful in whom you credit quotes.

[tubaforce]

Hi!
Regardless of who brought it up, the "cash register" for Bass Trombone varies from gig to gig, IMHO! I remember honking out a lot of low "C" 's with the Bari-sax player in Jazz Band. At Central Washington University in the early '80's, my Tuba section mate, Jim Christensen, played the hell out of Donald White's(he was our Department head at Central) "Tetra-Ergon" and other challenging works as a Bass Trombonist! I've had the privelege of sitting next to some very fine 4th 'Bone players both in Orchestral, and Wind Ensemble settings, and they were expected to cover every note availabe on the axe! So, IMHO, one should work on mastering the whole axe if they plan on more than honking out low notes in Jazz Band!
Al

[Tom Mason]

No one questions needing thre ability to cover the entire range. The idea is to sound like the approrpiate trombone in each area of the range. Bass trombone players who play extremely high usually do not have the tenor trombone sound. Except for solo works especially written to get that sound, high playing trombone parts are usually envisioned as getting a tenor trombone sound.

[Donn]

The idea is to sound like the approrpiate trombone in each area of the range.

Well, I'd be happy to sound like the bass trombone in the bass trombone area of the range for starters. If there is such a thing. Maybe there isn't.

It's funny, bass trombones are really a lot more alike than tubas, aren't they? One or two valves, some variation in bell diameter, that's about it, where tubas run from BBb to F, 3 to 6 valves, bores from .640 to .810 (I'm just making that up, don't argue!), stovepipe bells to 26 inch sousaphone bells. And yet just generically we seem to know where is "home" on the range, something the bass trombone players don't have. If you play in a band with a bass trombonist, try to remember that, and be a little supportive as they struggle to find their musical identity.

[Tom Mason]

More so than not, trombone professional agree that a trombone ought to sound like a trombone. Most of the teaching going on at least around my area tells us that there is a move toward less tubbiness, and more of a cutting sound; more like that usually heard in a cylindrical instruments. When you have a bass trombone in the mix, then you are adding a more conical instrument in the mix. Some more so by design. While some of us like a more mellow sound when playing the bass trombone, more than likely the mix of tenors and bass tends to require less mellow in the bass horn.

You know how to find the correct mouthpiece, because it is the same method as you would finding the right tuba mouthpiece for you.

[Bob Kolada]

I completely agree with Tom about two mouthpieces. I use a Yamaha 60B for small/big band bass and -some- tenor faking and a JK KBP 2C for brass quintet, brass choir,... The 2C is a phenomenal low range mp in my 1062. It's a much better setup than the Schilke 60 I used to use. The 2C is LESS tubby. I don't recommend a 60 for a tuba player as the rim is very thing.
I like a bit of cross over in my mps-
small tenor (never play)/marching trombone- 12C, 6.5AL
big tenor (never play)- 6.5AL, 3G, 60B
bass (also rarely play anymore!)- 60B, 2C
contra- 2C usually, also have a 2A
tuba- 2A as a tweener mp, Bach 18 (usually)

[J.c. Sherman]

Thinking of doubling?

1) Any boob, especially a tubist, can play low, especially down to Pedal Bb, which is 99% of the time the lowest note you'll have written, and rarely that for orchestral music. To be an even moderately successful bass trombonist, you need a good HIGH register. Ray Premru taught me that you'll see a hell of a lot more high A's than pedal A's.

2) Two of the best bass trombonists I've known played mouthpieces smaller than a 1.5 G. One played a 2G, the other a 3G I played a 1.5 for most of my career, and moved to a 1.25 rim only after really feeling like I would prefer a slightly larger cup volume.

3) I generally prefer the King/UMI/Benge 1.5G over the Bach. Just sayin'.

4) There are too many tubists who play at the bass trombone, and too few real bass trombonists.

5) A Schilke 60 is so like a 1920's Eb tuba mouthpiece that I find it indistinguishable. Sure, you'll nail a pedal E, but can you control a mouthpiece that large with a characteristic trombone sound and articulation, with focus, above the staff? Most of the folks who can say "yes" to this have a decade or more in the trenches and hours per day of practice under their belts. It's a damn big tool for a very specific purpose.

6) All this said, try it - it can be very fulfilling, you will access a whole new world and era of music, and bass boners tend to have better orchestra parts in general than the tuba. And it has a different pallet of expression which can be wonderful. Find a good teacher and study it as its own beast. It deserves it!

[bort]

4) There are too many tubists who play at the bass trombone, and too few real bass trombonists.

I agree. A good bass trombone sound can add so much color to the sound of a group (and a bad one can take so much away!).
There is a TON of difference between a sharp thin "blat" sound, and a rich fat "thwack" sound.

[Bob Kolada]

I generally prefer the King/UMI/Benge 1.5G over the Bach.

A friend plays a King 1 1/4, that is a SWEET mp!

[normrowe]

Thinking of doubling?

...

5) A Schilke 60 is so like a 1920's Eb tuba mouthpiece that I find it indistinguishable. Sure, you'll nail a pedal E, but can you control a mouthpiece that large with a characteristic trombone sound and articulation, with focus, above the staff? Most of the folks who can say "yes" to this have a decade or more in the trenches and hours per day of practice under their belts. It's a damn big tool for a very specific purpose.

Yeah, the Schilke 60's close to an Eb tuba piece, but quite manageable IF you're willing to put in the time on it. I played two graduate bass trombone recitals on one: one with a Reynolds Contempora stacked double trigger (Bb/F/D) and the other on the Olds P-24G inline double trigger (Bb/G/F/Eb). The range covered went from pedal C (3 octaves below middle C) to high B (a seventh above middle C) and there was a fair amount of stuff above the staff as well as under.

[J.c. Sherman]

That's a BIG if For me, though, it's not quite the sound I want, and that's okay - there is and can be variety. Ray Premru certainly put in the hours, and his power is legendary - all on a 2G. His Pedal Ebs on the Phillip Jones "Carnival of the Animals" is proof that size ain't everything

J.c.S.