creating bass lines

[Monty]

Not claiming I have great basslines- and it depends on style youre working on. But for ear players, if you know the melody and you are looking at chord symbols you should do fine.
Take whatever tune you are doing and practice the melody till it works. The basslines should present themselves. Im sure books help as well- so appreciate the other reccomendations.

[Monty]

yeah- it is kind of ironic to try to learn improv from a book.

[sloan]

yeah- it is kind of ironic to try to learn improv from a book.

Yeah - it's not as if anyone else has actually figured out any techniques here, or has any knowledge worth sharing.

Book learning is for wusses who can't figure it out on their own.

I recommend the Nike approach: "Just Do It" (this ancient Greek method was re-invented and perfected by Prof. Harold Hill)

[ghmerrill]

I recommend the Nike approach: "Just Do It" (this ancient Greek method was re-invented and perfected by Prof. Harold Hill)

This is inconsistent advice. The Nike approach is "Just Do It". The Hill method is "Just Think It".

I am a strong proponent of the Hill method. However, I find that in following it to the letter I not only need to think my practicing but also think my performances. But then I can think my instrument as well -- and this significantly reduces the cost of the instruments.

[Monty]

yeah- it is kind of ironic to try to learn improv from a book.

Yeah - it's not as if anyone else has actually figured out any techniques here, or has any knowledge worth sharing.

Book learning is for wusses who can't figure it out on their own.

I recommend the Nike approach: "Just Do It" (this ancient Greek method was re-invented and perfected by Prof. Harold Hill)

OP, please interpret my original post sans sarcasm or negative comparison- thats not the spirit intended.

[chronolith]

Theory and analysis are a big help, especially chord structures, modes, cadences and inversions. Don't let people tell you it isn't. While it is not strictly necessary for creating bass lines on any bass instrument in performance, it allows you to quickly identify the patterns and (just as importantly) communicate those things to others when necessary. In a working band or a studio situation, it can save a ton of time.

I am all for hitting a book or two as a starter, but it should end there. Once you have a fundamental basis it is time to outgrow the book and start paving new road. Listening to tons of music in that style will probably do more for your learning than anything else, but having the theory down makes the listening that much more productive and efficient.

Get your bass or tuba out with the recordings. Play along if you can. Imitate at first and then branch out and improvise your own bass lines. Once you get there you will be full of confidence and will be able to hit any stage.

[tubajoe]

This thread is all about the NOTES. Ugh! Toooooo much thinking!!

As a bassline player, your job is to make the girls dance. End of story. Naturally, right notes are needed to keep things cohesive, but theory and analyzation never got anyone...

If you are working as the bass instrument, chances are good that you are probably playing *some* sort of festive, fun music in a fun, festive environment. People don't want to come to a fun show to hear musical math. The girls want to dance and the guys want to watch the girls dance. That's how music works. (don't let this 'art' stuff fool you!! )

If you want to study, then study the Meters. Should be required study for every music major.

Groove first, notes second. Sure learn the theory, but look at it from a direction of why, rather than how.

[TubaRay]

This thread is all about the NOTES. Ugh! Toooooo much thinking!!

As a bassline player, your job is to make the girls dance. End of story. Naturally, right notes are needed to keep things cohesive, but theory and analyzation never got anyone...

If you are working as the bass instrument, chances are good that you are probably playing *some* sort of festive, fun music in a fun, festive environment. People don't want to come to a fun show to hear musical math. The girls want to dance and the guys want to watch the girls dance. That's how music works. (don't let this 'art' stuff fool you!! )

If you want to study, then study the Meters. Should be required study for every music major.

Groove first, notes second. Sure learn the theory, but look at it from a direction of why, rather than how.

I am not certain how to react to your post. Don't you realize that posts on TubeNet are not meant to be profound?! You know: silver vs. lacquer rotary vs. piston Surely you know this. NOW YOU'VE DONE IT! You have let the great secret out of the bag. "If you are working as the bass instrument, chances are good that you are probably playing *some* sort of festive, fun music in a fun, festive environment." Tuba players who are serious are meant to spend most of their time and effort practicing orchestral exerpts and tuba concertos.

TubeNetters: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. LOL

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Knowledge of music theory is a huge barrier. If you can't look at a g-7 and quickly realize that your best (non-root) choices are Bb, D, and occasionally F, you aren't going to be able to effectively create good sounding lines.

I teach jazz bass lessons at a major university and get a wide variety of players with a wide variety of experience. Those who can't quickly identify chord tones are very much lost until they can. Those that can struggle for a while with "plain" sounding lines until they figure out the correct proportions of starting a measure on a non-root and/or good strategies for bridging between chords. They generally "get it" when they listen a great deal to great players and "cop their style."

Books? Nah.

Groove first, notes second? HELL no. There's nothing worse than playing a combo gig with a bass player that can't cover the changes and sounds lost.

[tubajoe]

Lol.

Of course you should not abandon the harmonic responsibilities. Approach the groove with the same intensity and priority that you approach the harmony. and always make it sound fun

[GC]

Meh. A bass player who can't handle the changes usually won't be invited back. One who can't groove probably won't either. Desperation and only one bass player available can change it all, though.

[tubage]

A bass player who has no time, but can write out a g-7 chord would also not be invited back to a gig. I think a band would rather have a bass player who can play one note in time than someone who just knows math and theoretical things. Seeing how most bass gigs nowadays arent jazz combo gigs, I think playing the same note for more than one quarter note is pretty common. Many people who pick up a bass to learn basslines just copy what they hear on the radio, their favorite music, or something they thought was cool. I feel as though the harmonic understanding of whats going on comes with the territory (usually after the shapes on the neck are made, where the hand ends up moving to) and then one can discern harmony. I know Jaco couldn't read music until after he was pretty well known at least in all of Florida.

Putting these on the tuba is a whole different story though. With the bass, there are patterns and a visual aide (fingerboard, frets). Tuba is kind like a no mans land. My advice would be to get a cheap $80 electric bass off ebay and figure out some music you enjoy, and then apply them to tuba. Worst case scenario is that you would eventually be able to picture the entire bass neck in your head while playing the tuba (sarcasm). All the sudden, visualizing roots, fifths, minor thirds, octaves, etc all becomes pretty clear.

Many of the well known bass players out there today (Victor Wooten, etc) started with what they heard, copied it, and built upon that from there. If they started out with how-to books, instructional videos, and the "reading music is the only way to play music" mentality, they would not sound the same as they do now. Groove is everything. Where do you think the people who write these books or make these videos learned it from?

[Monty]

It is possible to put down a good groove without much regard for the changes...

This.

I repeat (if OP is still listening) it isnt a dichotomy between knowing harmony or not, or having feel vs a mental understanding. Most people have more of one or another- and I suspect by the wording of the question that harmony isnt his weakness.
If you have good time you have pocket- and that goes a long way. I learned my horn from zero- farting non notes in time on parades etc. Never lost a gig over it. Never got good at harmony- but learned the material from the top line of anything I played and eventually began to hear the song more beginning to end- rather than chord to chord. Your bassline should be able to be pulled out of the tune and be a tune in and of itself. Thats why I think books are a great adjunct- but ultimately arent going to directly contribute to playing a good show on bass. I also dont see that picking up a bass guitar will be much more than an interesting exercise- you are playing tuba as bass- so do the thing you are trying to get good at- bad basslines show the way to better basslines. If you are looking for shortcuts- melody is your friend-
not harmony- harmony is deep -melody is quick- if you can do both- you are deep and quick- and the girls love that indeed.

[MikeMason]

or, start your own band,pick your own tunes,and memorize/write out those suckers ! and no,that's not working for me so well...

[Tuba Guy]

Anyone who can memorize R. Strauss' Horn Concerto #1 (which sounds REALLY dumb played on the tuba, btw) can memorize/learn chord changes to 32-bar (and even more complicated) tunes.

Well that sounds like a challenge. I know that Dr. T's absolute worst performance major played that piece last year and this year wants to get more into commercial style playing. However that same student has also gotten in trouble for trying to make the bass lines for pep band more interesting (repeated F quarter note for 12 bars? no thanks). In the end, the way I *started learning my 12/16 bar forms was when my band started covering songs that had those changes and I had to learn to cover them. The resources suggested here are a definite next step.

[tubaforce]

Hi!
I don't understand why anyone would be down on Jamey Abersold's Books and recordings! The print allows you to see what great Bassists like Ron Carter are seeing, and the notes they put down upon seeing those Chord calls! Then you get to play with top notch players on Charlie Parker Tunes! Ear playing and listening are every bit as important as important as book learning, in fact, I value my ear more than my theory ability! I had a college theory Professor named Bob Panerio. He was a composer/arranger, and a Pro Trumpet player. The man could sing any triad, with extensions, in any inversion, with any one note of the chord in question sounded! He inspired me to listen. And though I never even came close to his ability, I can still name the type of triad, and several extensions, by ear! When I improvise, or "comp" a Bass line on Tuba or Bass, I hear in advance the resolution of the b5 to the root of the next chord! I already have an idea in my mind's ear where the chord calls in a new tune are telling me to go, and a quick glance at the chart confirms my thought.
It is my responsibility as the Bass to take the group where the writer wants to go! Working with the Abersold books helped connect what I was hearing to what I was seeing in my reading! I still to this day, will cop a part of a lick that the soloist is playing, and I love to trade 4's! This was facilitated by my experience with the Abersold method!
Dance Music, even Big Band, requires nothing more than the form and key, and the unusual turn around one sometimes encounters...
Al

[David Richoux]

I do a lot of trad jazz gigs on a fill-in basis. When a tune is called that I do not know (but maybe have heard once or twice before) I can usually work my way throughout the bass line after a chorus or two of faking, but it can be exciting sometimes!

I have not had the same happy ending with most "modern" jazz (post 1950) tunes, even if I have possibly heard them before - the changes don't always follow the same rules. If it is a pop or rock tune I can usually get through it without a total fail, but there are so many tunes out there - it is impossible to know ahead of time what songs might be called. You just need to learn how to figure out where a song might be going and keep the beat going best you can.

If there is a guitar, banjo, or keyboard player it is vital to listen to them (and ask about any tricks to the song if you don't know it. ) I have done a lot of "fake" polka work by watching the accordion player - if they move to another chord row you can be sure either a key change or bridge is happening I can get through a polka I have never heard before with that trick!