What to do if I get a degree in music?

[PMeuph]

I see it more like a new car lot. All of the cars on the lot are for sale, and all of them are the same brand (the brand being "Degree"). If the car lot is going to exclusively sell "Degree" brand cars, how can they possibly have their salesmen driving other brands of cars?

Fair enough, I'm not really disagreeing with you, I'm just pointing out the exceptions that exists.

What I was hinting at in my other post is that I have seen people (composer, and performers mostly) without a Ph.D holding a tenured job. On some level the university felt that the person (as they held a masters, had many works, many awards, etc) was "at the same level" as someone with a Ph.D. But that is more the exception rather than the norm.

Ultimately, you're right, universities justify themselves with themselves. (ie. they offer Ph.Ds so that you can teach (at a university), and they teach to offer Ph.Ds)

(On a very distant sidenote, Roger Bobo (only) has a Bachelors from Eastman and is/was amongst the best in the world. I wonder if he could have gotten a tenured tuba job in the US.)

[Mark]

The tuba players in large orchestras and in towns with a lot of recording work, can earn well into six figures (i.e. much more than $100,000 per year). How m any of these jobs are there? Maybe 20 - 30.

A very few studio musicians also make well into six figures.

A new grad with an engineering degree, even in this economy, should be able to find a job with a starting salary of $60,000 or more. Have you thought about engineering?

Check this out: http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp.

[bort]

The other part is that the pros who do make $100k/year (or maybe even $60k/year or more) usually bust their asses to get that many gigs, keep up for them, and driving around to everything. Schedules are crazy, concerts are on night/weekends. It's not just the money and playing the tuba, it's also the lifestyle, make sure you like that part of it too.

Engineering is a fine career path, but certainly not for everyone. That's a whole other lifestyle and work environment that many people just wouldn't ever care to have, even if the money is good. I was a math major and took a bunch of physics classes. But I had NO desire to ever be an engineer.

[Mark]

The other part is that the pros who do make $100k/year (or maybe even $60k/year or more) usually bust their asses to get that many gigs, keep up for them, and driving around to everything. Schedules are crazy, concerts are on night/weekends. It's not just the money and playing the tuba, it's also the lifestyle, make sure you like that part of it too.

And how. Their schedules are nuts. You may go weeks or months without a day off and when you get a few unexpected days off, you start to worry about the dip in your income. There is a lot of stress.

[PMeuph]

This is a great answer (in another post) so I will quote and repost:

A recent message from a student:

Dear Mr. H
I have a few questions, okay so when I play the all-state piece with all of the high notes, sometimes my teeth hurt after playing it. I think it is because of the high notes, but is there anything I can do to prevent this? Also I want to seriously think about going to Julliard as an option for college, and I don't know how the auditions work but, is it possible to maybe pick a very challenging piece now and perfect it for the future? What do you think of this idea? What is a good piece to pick? Do you think that I actually have to potential to get into Julliard?

My reply:

If high notes make your teeth hurt I suspect that it may be due to pressing too hard on your mouthpiece. Don't do that. Trying too hard to play too high when you are too young can lead to pain and bad habits. I try to get my students to learn the scale patterns and the "root-3-5-7 pattern" in all the keys to develop the high chops carefully, making only brief excursions into the high register. (Eventually you will start doing a "root-3-5-7-9" pattern in all keys.) I also advise my students to practice the high parts down an octave frequently, and up as written only occasionally.

In recent years tuba playing has become much more competitive than it was when I was your age. It has been pointed out that today your chance of winning a position in a professional symphony orchestra is comparable to your chance of winning a seat in the U.S. senate or a spot on a pro basketball team. As a result, the tubists who do make it tend to be so focused on the job that they often burn out early. A condition called "focal dystonia" has destroyed the careers of a lot of tubists who are younger than I am. Go to Google and read about it.

In my opinion, making music is the greatest form of recreation ever invented. If you are capable of earning a living with any other activity you can enjoy making music as recreation for your entire adult life, and you can also pick up a little extra money with it. But most people who try to depend entirely on music for a living end up hating it. I can tell you about professional musicians younger than I am who ended up driving school buses, clerking in record stores, and managing restaurants.

I don't know anything about Julliard, but I think it is a specialty school for people who don't just want to play, but rather for those who have to play because they can't do anything else. Are you one of those poor souls, or are you one of the fortunate people who have potential in other areas besides music? If you are one of the latter group then I would urge you to consider colleges with good instrumental music programs but also good departments of science, mathematics,engineering, languages, business, etc. etc.

You asked about picking a very challenging piece to prepare for the future as a possible audition piece for Julliard. There are plenty of absurdly challenging pieces out there now, and most of them are in the extreme high register a lot of the time. You can easily bust your chops hacking on that kind of stuff. I would urge you instead to work on perfecting the entire Bordogni book, making it sound like music. Also master the Kopprasch and Blazhevich books, and the Effective Etudes for Jazz by Carubia and Jarvis, down an octave.

Buy a lot of solo tuba CDs by big-name soloists and listening to what they do. Also listen to every other kind of music that you can find, and think about how you might adapt it for the tuba. You may find something that you really like, that nobody else has done. Prepare that, and also do your math and science homework.

-Mr. H.-

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47152" target="_blank

[UTSAtuba]

I agree with a lot that is being said here. I graduated this past spring with a BM in Music Education. I picked up a job as orchestra director for split schools (didn't get the call til late August). I've been working my behind off ever since school started.

Did I feel fully prepared with a college degree? Hell no.

Am I enjoying what I'm doing? There have only been two or three instances where I've felt excited about what I'm doing.

Now, I'm looking at other careers. Do I still want to pursue a musical career? Absolutely. Do I want it to involve public school teaching? Depends. (Am I asking myself too many questions? Yup!). Essentially, I am backing up what others have said with real-life applications. I went into Music Education because I knew that's what I wanted to do. When I got in, I realized actual music teaching only happens about 5% of the day...if I'm lucky. I'm looking at other options because 1) teachers are underpaid, and 2) same as 1) (especially with all the crap teachers deal with on a daily/hourly basis...everything Joe said in his first post is true).

Someone made a point about obtaining an Engineering degree. Sure, the starting pay will be at least $60k, but I keep hearing stories of engineers getting laid off and having to move cross-country (hell, they just might be s***ty engineers). Like another poster said, it's never too late to switch careers or job options (just make sure you're somewhat financially sound in doing so).

[PMeuph]

This is covering very old turf, but (and covered too many times...and too many times with the same responses) I view the "music education" curriculum as "music performance lite". Too much performance (concentrated on just one instrument) and too little on how to educate and administrate a music classroom. The music education curriculum, moreover, actually encourages and perpetuates the old "music education as a fallback" philosophy.

Do the music students at middle and high schools REALLY need band directors who are crackerjack baritone horn players, but who have only taken one semester of conducting, one semester of (all-in-one) woodwinds, one semester of (all-in-one) brass, one semester of (all-in-one) percussion, one semester of (all-in-one) strings, two or three "philosophy of education" courses, and one semester of student teaching? ...and it is my understanding that courses in writing marching band drill are still only elective in most music education curricula. Of course "real" teaching situations are going to hit these people as if a deer in the headlights. A music education degree SHOULD be much more like "job training", particularly since it culminates with certification...

...and why SHOULDN'T universities (as they - apparently...?? - identify themselves as "universal") offer quite a few courses of study that - unabashedly - are "job training" ?

As much as that option sounds good, shouldn't such a degree then be called not a Music Ed. degree but rather a "Band Director" Ed. degree. While I do get that most music teachers are band directors a degree in Music ed. should give someone the resources to teach music as a whole and not just band (ie. choir, orchestra, private lessons, chamber ensembles, etc...)

[sloan]

...and why SHOULDN'T universities (as they - apparently...?? - identify themselves as "universal") offer quite a few courses of study that - unabashedly - are "job training" ?

Universities? I thought you were talking about "colleges".

[EdFirth]

I don't believe that, other than big symphony jobs, and there are notable exceptions to even that, that collge is a prerequisite to playing professionaly. The best place to learn to play as a pro is on the job. I started in the Army band then two circus bands and on and on from band to band until I retired four years ago.Many colleges discourage any kind of playing beyond orchestral, band and quintet. The school I attended breifly was one of those. That being said, playing professionally is sketchy at best.Music is pretty much viewed by all but the musicians themselves as a luxury. The jobs come and go. But if it's really what you want to do you should be willing to accept that and pursue your art. Most pros seem to have multiple marriages as the crazy schedule puts a strain on familes. Only a few of my musical associats are still with their original spouse and many are on #4, 5, or 6. But to more directly awnser the question I play in several orchestras, I taught at a college for two years, worked in the hottest quintet in Central Florida for two years, and get to play with some really fine jazz players. All without a degree. Lastly, I think the smartest thing for a young player with pro aspirations is the service. And I'm not talking special bands here. I was in the band at Ft. Lee then the band at West Point and when you go into a regular band you spend six monthes at the "school of music" where, in our case as tuba players, you play ALOT of tuba but also learn electric and accoustic bass as well as theory. Then you go play in a band for the rest of your enlistment. On all three . So when you get out you know if it's what you really want to do and worst possible use the GI bill to go to college and learn something else.Sorry for the ramble, my wife has a masters and makes alot of money in the school system so either way can work. She also plays in town alot and enjoys riding me about not having a degree. All the best of luck to you whatever you decide. Ed

[Lew]

Both "Bloke" and Ken seem to be saying the same thing, that a college degree should not be thought of as job training and that college is not a necessary or even desirable path to a good job. While I agree, I think that the reality is more complex. There are certainly college degree programs that are profession oriented. If some choose to consider them not "real" college degrees so be it, but they are very much a large part of many schools.

I now teach on the other side of what Ken does. While he teaches Computer Science, which should be focused on the "science" of computers and computing, I teach Management Information Systems in a college of business. My focus is not on teaching students about how to use or create new computer technology, but how the use of existing or technology anticipated to be available in the near future, can help in various business disciplines. Someone who graduates with a Bachelor's degree in business or an MBA from our University is getting a degree to prepare them for a specific role in business, whether that is accounting, finance, hospitality management, or something else. In talking to many different recruiters for the large employers who hire my graduates they are very much interested in hiring someone with a profession oriented degree. These are the same companies that 33 years ago (when "Bloke" and I who are the same age graduated or would have graduated from college) would hire anyone with a college degree in just about any subject expecting to have to teach them the specifics of their job after being hired. There was an expectation at that time that most college degrees weren't about learning a profession, but were as Ken has described them, more about a broad level of learning. Of course at that time there were still exceptions, like my degrees in Industrial Engineering or other engineering or business degrees, but what mattered more for most employers was your class standing than the specifics of your major.

The expectations of employers of college grads has changed dramatically since then and in spite of what Ken says about why one should go to college, what you major in does impact your ability to be hired out of college. Of course there are plenty of jobs, as "Bloke" mentions for which you don't need a college degree, but even those are becoming fewer and there is less upward mobility in those positions like this that do exist.

If you were my son and asking this question I would say that you should only get a college degree in something that you love and for which the learning will be a pleasure not a chore. This should be done NOT based on the nature of the job that you would be able to achieve out of the degree, but based on that about which you want to learn more. I strongly agree with "Bloke's" comment regarding music ed as a fallback. Teaching is not something onto which you fall back, Mr. Holland's Opus notwithstanding.

If tuba playing is your only love in life, then you should pursue that with or without a music degree. Just don't expect it to be easy or to make a decent income unless you are extraordinarily good and lucky. My sister has been a starving french horn player for her entire adult life. She has always been a very good horn player and makes enough to live on by playing with 3 part time symphonies and giving private lessons, but money is always tight and it is an uncertain living. On the other hand I have a friend who is one of the top horn players in Europe and who makes a very good living playing in major symphonies in Europe and now teaching at a conservatory. A very small percentage of players of any instrument make a good living wage playing that instrument and although I have not studied it in detail, I suspect that there is little correlation between the specific colleges that those who are successful attended and their level of success in music.

The other option is to plan to continue in college to get a DMA and teach at the university level, but there are many graduates competing for each one of those jobs, and the pay is at the low end of the range you have mentioned until you have been working for a long time at that level.

[tclements]

I wrote a blog about this:

http://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2011/03/wh ... music.html" target="_blank

As always, I encourage and welcome your comments, pro or con.

Enjoy!

[PMeuph]

- With all of the above in consideration, "playing/teaching music", "playing/teaching sports", "acting/telling jokes", "drawing pictures", "dancing/teaching dance", "writing stories", "expressing opinions in various media"...all of these non-essential types of professions and many more...are going to continue to become tougher and tougher ways to make money (much less make a living). Yes, the internet is currently giving all of these professions a tremendous boost in exposure, but (??) not particularly in income...and when the ultimate/inevitable collapse occurs (as it is being artificially delayed while the problem is being horribly exacerbated), not many will be looking to consume these sorts of non-essential services. Banding together in "unions" is all well and good as far as it goes, but is a completely ineffective strategy if there is no existing market to consume an offered service at any price.

What do you think of Pop music? Hollywood Films? NBA/NFL/MLB/PGA...salaries? "Pop" Authors? etc...

I absolutely agree with the rest of your post, and even this point for the most part, I just think there is a lot of money in music. Just not in "Classical" music. Certain pop stars (including all their business enterprises) are worth hundreds of millions, even billions... To me that seems way more than at any other time in history. The same holds true for the others...

[toobagrowl]

What do you think of Pop music? Hollywood Films? NBA/NFL/MLB/PGA...salaries? "Pop" Authors? etc...

I think it shows the "culture" we live in today. Sadly, people are much more willing to shell out lots of money for pop stars who have little talent, or sports figures who make as much as many high-up corporate CEO's than they are for real musicians or others who are in "high art". Even in this crappy 'global economy', there is still money out there - its just spent on sports and pop stars. Sad but true. There used to be much more support for high art & 'classical' music (ballet, orchestra, opera, etc) years ago than there is today.
I could go on and on about this but will leave it at that.

[tubazach07]

So here is the cold hard truth.
The economy sucks, symphonies are going under and now military bands are on the chopping block as well. I thought when I joined the navy music program I would have a guarented job. Now with PTS and the lack of our goverment getting their heads out of their asses. There is a very good chance there will be no more military music program. If you dont beleive me ask the members of the d.c. band they are now on a hiring freeze.

The biggest mistake I ever made was going to college. Dont get me wrong I loved the instructors at CIM and I learned a lot but I could of learned that much from just taking lessons and working a job on the side. All I wanted to be was a orchestra tuba player when I was a kid and now I play tuba in a rock band for the navy. In the past year I have taken more photos then play tuba. Not what I had in mind. I can tell you that if you decide to do the military band route you will play soo much one five on one that it doesnt matter where you went to school. Also if someone out ranks you and says you suck, well everyone is going to think you suck.

You should play tuba on the side and get a degree in something that matters. Computer, science, etc. Anything but music. A perforamce degree is good for one thing. To wipe your *** with and thats it. I never finished my degree but I am still $30,000.00 in debt and nothing is scares me more then that.
I am sorry if this hurts but I wish someone beat that into my head before I made my decision to try and become a professional tuba player.
Best wishes and good luck with whatever path you choose.

[pjv]

No one can fill this one in for you.

Some thoughts;

Is it music you're in love with or just symphony music?

Jim Self once mentioned to me something which I can't quote properly (it was over 20yrs ago), but this is what it meant to me. You have talents like Roger Bobo and Tommy Johnson, but the rest of us have to bust our backs to scrape out a living (not that "talents" don't work hard). Be creative in your idea about music and how you can use the tuba. Doubling is a reality for many tubists, including the late Tommy Johnson who was earning about 40% of his living on bass trombone at the time (so he said). And he was the #1 call in the Hollywood studios!

My own story is I didn't really even try to go into the Classical music scene; it wasn't a good match. I play everything else; hiphop, Surinams, jazz, country, improv. Theres a lot to be said about putting your eggs in more than one basket. If one band folds, you still have the others. If you loose your job as a teacher it could take forever to get a new one. And if you're over 40; good luck.

I also do a lot of work on trombone. I started bass trombone since the youth orchestra conductor felt that doubling was a realistic 2nd income. I stopped within a year or two because tuba was difficult enough. I picked up the tenor after I finished school because I wanted more hands on experience with playing melodies. Eventually I was working more trombone then tuba, so I decided to take the tuba with me to the tbn gigs! (unless it was obviously inappropriate). Nowadays I've worked out a corner in the market by being a doubler on tubas from Bb down to BBb, cimbasso, tenor and bass trombone. It keeps me working (true, around minimum loon) and it keeps me happy being an active musician. I've accepted being on the bottom of the financial ladder (which has its advantages during the money crisis; I never had much money anyway. No prob.)

Many of us end up somewhere else later in life than we expected to be earlier on. But it doesn't have to be a disappointment.

By the way, music schools (university, academy, etc) are a great way to get a lot of lessons in music for a comparatively cheep price. Experience is usually earned in the field. In this sense, a degree in music performance is almost worthless as a degree. Its what you learned there that determines the value.

Good luck,
Patrick

[bort]

I recently met a young Chinese man (around 30 years old) at a college alumni event.

He told me back at his home city in China, EVERYONE goes to undergrad for computer science or engineering. Not like the vague "oh, everyone does that," but a serious 100% of students do that. Many of those people go on to grad school in other countries like the US, often for other business subject areas (he was some sort of finance MBA). Now, he works in corporate real estate.

I have no real point to this story, just seemed timely.

[tbn.al]

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[jonesbrass]

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[David Richoux]

Zits.gif

I was going to post that!

[sloan]

So here is the cold hard truth.
You should play tuba on the side and get a degree in something that matters. Computer, science, etc. Anything but music.

Or, you might just as well play with computers on the side and get a degree in music. You don't need a full-fledged degree in CS to get a job as the IT guy for the local orchestra. I suspect that a degree in Music would be more useful.

You might even learn to program AFTER you win the tuba job (how's that plan working, Wade?)

Your undergraduate major is simply not all that important. You are better off learning a little bit about a wide variety of fields (learn what each field is about, how those who work in it think - and what they think about, what tools they use, etc.) You have to pick *something* to "major" in - but don't let that get in the way of your education. Avoid majors that require *all* of your undergraduate time. Avoid like the plague those that claim to prepare you for a "job".

Repeat after me: NO undergraduate degree/major prepares you for ANY specific job. None.
[no, Joe - not even those that hand you a "certificate" from the State]. Whatever you do next will require on-the-job training.

Think about it: how much time do undergraduates *really* spend working on specific training tasks? Very little. Mostly, that's by design - they should be exploring a wide range of options, not putting on blinders and marching straight ahead. But...once through those first 4 years, faced with actual job choices, people sometimes become more focussed. When properly motivated, and provided with the right training program, anyone (with the basic aptitude) can pick up all the job-related skills that anyone learns in college...in 3-6 months, tops.

Some may want to point out here that it would be better to NOT spend 4 years "finding yourself" - and just skip directly to the 3-6 month training program. I wouldn't object, but I would point out that there are choices that high school students simply don't know about. Making that sort of decision at 18 is dangerous. Perhaps it's time for another poll on the subject "are you doing the job now that you selected at age 18?"

If I had my druthers, undergraduates would not get to "declare a major" until the Spring of their Sophomore year. Pick FOUR potential majors, and take the introductory sequence in ALL of them. Then pick 1 to drop, 2 to dabble in, and 1 as your "major".

Let's see: Freshman Year: Math 1-2, Music 1-2, Philosophy 1-2, Biology 1-2.
Take private lessons, and play in the band/orchestra/whatever - as non-credit activities (why would you waste college tuition on that stuff?)

Someone with that background will be welcomed with open arms into my CS department. Our schedule calls for our majors to take their first "CS" courses in the Spring of the second year.
Students still have time to switch back to Philosophy when they find out that CS is not "playing video games".

And...when you get out - if you think you screwed up by choosing Music - we can teach you enough CS in 1 year to qualify you for the MS program. At worst, after 6 years you might be 1 year behind those students who did nothing but CS from day 1. Note that this is a lot easier if you learned SOMETHING (esp. Math) other than Music in those first 4 years.

Or, you could go to Med School - they don't turn up their noses at folk with Music degrees (only, be sure to take a few chemistry courses along the way).

Or, you could go to Law School - I don't know anyone with an undergrad major in Law.

Or, you could get an MBA (I don't know of any reason whatsoever to get an undergraduate degree in "Business" - whatever that is - MBA mills would probably prefer an Economics major over a Business major anywayi)

Or, you could run away and join the Circus.