Conn 20J

[Dan Schultz]

Naw.... 2nd thoughts.... you're gonna have to find a REAL recording bell for it and get rid of the sousa bell so you can see where you're going!

However.... if you can pick it up for little or nothing, grab it. Parts is parts and those pistons are no longer made and that sousa bell can easily be sold.

[The Big Ben]

Taylor Music has "econo-overhauled" 20Js for $2050. Considering they have a lot of labor costs and profit to figure in, you should be able to get a decent one for a lot less.

[Closetgeek]

One could say it was rare in the fact that they are no longer manufactured, but that doesn't make them neccessarily valuable. I have no idea how many of these things were ever made, but they're common enough that they're well known and still available through some sources like Ebay.

The 20J I originally was discussing when I started this thread is owned by my local junior college and it was probably either donated or rescued from another school district. And as I had mentioned earlier, someone apparently replaced the original recording bell with that from a 20K sousaphone. Currently, it plays horribly and finding an original bell is next to impossible. Thus the value of this horn is questionable at best, if it in fact has any value at all. And I've seen these horns offered on Ebay perfectly restored for $3000 and up. But they only have 3 valves and they weigh a ton. If a person were to bide his time and shop around, something much better with 4 valves could be found for around the same price. A lot of people really like these old warhourses though.

I think the college owns around 100 (and since I am not a musician, the valve thing had slipped my mind), one or two have 'patent pending' engraved on them....
It was note worthy to them I suppose...they have like 40 on the field, to give it the extra umph.....

So a decent one (with 3 valves) can be had for under 2k, who'da thunk it.

I appreciate the insight.

[Chuck Jackson]

Be sure that you're not confusing the 20J with the 20K. The 20K is the sousaphone.

There is a school down south, I want to say Troy State, that marches 20J's. Yes, 20J's, and a whole bunch of them. If one were to do a google search, I believe there is a whole website dedicated to the tuba section and the venerable 20J's.

Chuck"I know, but fact is stranger than fiction"Jackson

http://20j.marchingsoutherners.org/history.htm" target="_blank

And there is their website!!! Enjoy!

[GC]

Giving credit to Troy State is probably the quickest way to inflame the Jacksonville State Marching Southerners, their perennial rivals (and I believe Troy is the alma mater of Matt Walters). The Southerners had 24-30 20J's on the field over the last decade or so. They have a bottom end that's the strongest I've ever heard. You might look up some of their recent videos on Y'all Tube, and good headphones or good speakers make the bass even more impressive.

Unfortunately, the 20J web site has several pieces of misinformation. The only way a 20J weighs 52 pounds is if a couple of 12-packs are hidden inside; they weigh 28 pounds. They might weigh 52 pounds in their hard cases. And their bores are hardly the biggest of any tuba produced at the time.

[Chuck Jackson]

DANG!

Aptly said my friend.

Giving credit to Troy State is probably the quickest way to inflame the Jacksonville State Marching Southerners, their perennial rivals (and I believe Troy is the alma mater of Matt Walters).

Mea Culpa. I knew it was down south somewhere. I have to wonder if the whole 20J thing REALLY started by some old boy saying "Hey, watch this" then proceded to march around with one of those bad boys and, POOF, the rest is history.

Chuck"who is well aware of the ACTUAL history, but just trying to inject some fun"Jackson

[Closetgeek]

Be sure that you're not confusing the 20J with the 20K. The 20K is the sousaphone.

There is a school down south, I want to say Troy State, that marches 20J's. Yes, 20J's, and a whole bunch of them. If one were to do a google search, I believe there is a whole website dedicated to the tuba section and the venerable 20J's.

Chuck"I know, but fact is stranger than fiction"Jackson

http://20j.marchingsoutherners.org/history.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

And there is their website!!! Enjoy!

DANG!

JSU, yes.

[Closetgeek]

Giving credit to Troy State is probably the quickest way to inflame the Jacksonville State Marching Southerners, their perennial rivals (and I believe Troy is the alma mater of Matt Walters). The Southerners had 24-30 20J's on the field over the last decade or so. They have a bottom end that's the strongest I've ever heard. You might look up some of their recent videos on Y'all Tube, and good headphones or good speakers make the bass even more impressive.

Unfortunately, the 20J web site has several pieces of misinformation. The only way a 20J weighs 52 pounds is if a couple of 12-packs are hidden inside; they weigh 28 pounds. They might weigh 52 pounds in their hard cases. And their bores are hardly the biggest of any tuba produced at the time.

I got the phone number of one of the guys playing, I can ask I suppose

Not sure who writes these articles and proof reads them....that is a big difference though!

[Chuck Jackson]

OK, I'm going to break my silence here and share my own 20J story. Sit down kids, this does involve an esteemed board member.

In the spring of 1993 I was released from Korea and made my way back to Ft. Monroe, the home of TUSCAB. One day I was sitting around and Nick Compagna, a FABULOUS clarinet player from NOLA, said his vet called an said he had scene a couple of tubas at a scrap yard. I ran over there and bought two 20J bodies for $25.00, which was what they worth as scrap. I kept the better of the two and gave it to Steve S. who was a repair guy at the SOM to fix up. Fast forward to the Fall of 1993. I was at the SOM for BNCOC (don't ask what it means), the 20J is done, but I have no bell. I had my Union paper with me an lo and behold, there is an advertisement from some guy in Memphis selling various parts, one of which was a silver recording bell for a Conn 20J. So I gave Mid-South Music a call on a smoke break and got a very grumpy guy named Joe on the phone, told him I would buy the bell sight unseen for the princely sum of $175.00. I sent him a Western Union MoneyGram that day, the bell arrived a week later in perfect condition. I am a proud customer of our own "Bloke". Until last April, my briefcase had a Mid-South Music ID Tag on it. It bit the dust somewhere in San Diego. Joe, you were advertised in 7 Eurupean Countries and China. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Chuck"never liked the horn very much"Jackson

[GC]

A 20J with the proper strap is fairly comfortable to march with. It's no worse than a lot of sousaphones. The biggest problem is that they're all old (ended manufacture in the mid-'70's, I believe), and they need reasonable care to keep them in good playing shape. A few dents in the lead pipe or the valve tubing, and they're dogs.

[Jess Haney]

The 36j is a blast to play. Love those old Conns

[Lew]

...

I have undergone something of a crash course in instrument value in the last year, but I got stumped a bit.

The Conn 20J was locally billed as some seriously rare instrument - but I am inclined to believe now that the article got it wrong in certain parts....

There are probably a few old 20Js sitting around thousands of band rooms across the country. At one point it seemed that every school at every level had one or a whole section of them. The varieties with 3 top action valves and a recording bell are very common, in working condition typically selling from $1000 - $2500 depending on condition. More rare are the upright bell versions, whether with 3 valves (21J) or 4 valves (25J). Here is the one I used to own:



Rarer still would be any of these with front action valves. I have seen very few of these, and have only seen the 3 valve version in person, including the one below (22J) that I used to own. I have seen a photo of a 4 valve version. The rarest version of a 2XJ would therefore be a 4 valve with an upright bell (27J?) and the price for that could be very high.

[GC]

Were any of the 2XJ series made with a fixed upright bell? I know some of the 3XJ's were.

[sloan]

The 3xJ is different from the 2xJ - the bodies might be the same, but the valve section aren't.

The bodies aren't *exactly* the same.

Ask "bloke" about the difference...

At first glance, it looks as if (for example) a 2xJ top bow might fit on a 3xJ body. Well...it can be *coerced*
into place, but that requires heat and muscle...and skill.

Ken "proud owner of a 1934 36J with a 20J top bow" Sloan

[GC]

The major difference, in my understanding, is that the 2XJ series had short-stroke valves while the 3XJ series all had long-stroke. Some of the numbering described similar configurations between the two series other than the valves. I guess my question is whether or not short-stroke versions of the Grand Orchestra were ever made, or a similar instrument. When I was first looking to buy a tuba in the early '70's, I looked at a ton of instruments, and I seem to remember a picture of a short-stroke fixed upright bell big Conn in a current catalog.

[Dan Schultz]

The discussion of models numbers directed me to have a look at my old Conn General Catalog 'C' and the 1927 price list.

Many of the Conn model numbers were 'recycled'. Such as 21J through 24J. Apparently in the mid-20's... those were all 'long-action' horns. Some of the front-action horns were 28-33J and 84-87J. Most of those models I've never seen. There were no 'short-action' horns listed in the Conn General Catalog 'C'. There is not a publication date on catalog 'C' but the price list that it contained has a date of June 1, 1927. There is also a credit application that's dated 1926.

Of special interest is the price of the Conn 48K 'Jumbo' sousaphone in the standard lacquered brass finish... $505 cash and $530.25 if you chose the Conn Payment Plan. $875 and $918.75 if you wanted 'quad gold plate & heavy engraving'.

[The Big Ben]

Of special interest is the price of the Conn 48K 'Jumbo' sousaphone in the standard lacquered brass finish... $505 cash and $530.25 if you chose the Conn Payment Plan. $875 and $918.75 if you wanted 'quad gold plate & heavy engraving'.

"Sherman, crank up the Time Machine!"

[bort]

wow!!

Could you imagine (as was the value of money at that time) paying $505 in REAL SILVER DOLLARS (or $20 gold pieces) for a sousaphone !??!

$15,000 - $35,000 in today's money...

Too bad that the value of gold has far outpaced the value of vintage tubas.

[Lee Stofer]

I'll take a moment to share what I can add about Conn 2XJ's.

Judging from schlepporello's photo, it would be ridiculous to try to play that instrument with a 26" 2XK sousaphone bell. The 20J/24J tubas had a bell that has about a 60-degree curve in the bow, and were available in either 22" or 24" diameters. To answer Schlepporello, get the horn and get it fixed up, or make sure the band director does, because any repairs it needs are a pittance compared to what new horns cost, and it is a very solid horn. Due to the properties of the short-action valves (short stroke and very large diameter), I have yet to see one where they were were worn-enough to need rebuilding. It would be a waste to not repair this instrument.

To Dr. Sloan, I apologize that I had forgotten about your quest for a bell - I have a 24" "naked lady" bell that is available now.
I would also mention that new reproduction upright bells are available, with or without engraving, in a 20" diameter, which makes the instrument a bit more agile in response than they were with the original 24" diameter bells, which are quite rare. Some of the 3XJ's were avialable with a rare one-piece upright bell, but they were never popular.

If one of these tubas does not play in tune, it is probably because a) there are dents in nodal points on the horn, b) the instrument is not being played with one (1) tuning bit, or (c) the valves are not aligned. If you want your 20J to have issues with the F at the bottom of the staff, just try playing it with no bits or with two. It was designed to play in-tune when it is dent-free, has aligned valves, and with ONE BIT.

I'm using a mid' 1956 Conn 20J right now for my band playing, and the tuning is quite good and consistent. The privileged tones are good-enough that I can readily play virtually any note I want to (if I've practiced enough). I will say that I took a bit of time with this tuba, because short-action valves' oval ports require very accurate alignment to work right.

I also took a bit of time with the leadpipe. On a tuba with conventional valves, I can de-dent the leadpipe with dent balls and a cable system through 1st valve and the receiver. Since the Conn short-action valves have oval ports, the dent balls will not fit, so the leadpipe has to be repaired off-the-instrument. As dents are removed, the leadpipe tends to start to straighten out, so it has to be re-bent/re-rounded until it is dent-free and really fits the instrument without tension. Yes, it is a great horn, but many continue to have dented leadpipes because they are a pain-in-the-pinfeathers to repair.

The 20J here tips the scales at about 26 lbs. Due to a larger valve bore which makes the instrument less conical than a Martin, the Conn does not have quite the "sweet" response that the Martin does, but the Conn is capable of astounding depth and breadth of sound.

If you ever get a chance to hear them, listen to the Jacksonville State University (Jacksonville, Aabama, not Florida) Marching Southerner Band. I heard them first in a performance at the Georgia Dome in Atlanta, and even though it was 8 years ago, I still get chills just thinking about it. A great-sounding band, their sound rests on the bass provided by about 25 players with 20J's strapped on. I do not think the sound I heard that day could be matched by any number of sousaphones or contra-bugles of any type - the sound was so moving that I found myself in tears, unheard-of at a marching band show. You have to hear it in person to believe it. Of course it was not only the instruments themselves, but also the musicianship of the players who made them sound that way.

I can't help but wonder, if Arnold Jacobs had been 6' tall with excellent lungs, and had played a Conn 25J with the CSO, what the tuba world would be like today. . . .

[sousaphone68]

Here is a 20j gig cam video I found on YouTube music starts at 2 minutes gets better further in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaTOJ4QY ... ata_player" target="_blank