CSO - VW!!!!!!

[Kevin Hendrick]

What a knobby thing to post.........

What is this about????

It means "buy a ticket, ya freeloading bum!"

At least that's how this freeloading bum interpreted it.

It *is* a lovely sentiment (or sediment ), but buying a ticket "don't do JS" for those that can't get there to use it.

[MartyNeilan]

I would be more than happy to buy a CD/DVD or buy an online download if one were to be available.

[bort]

I would be more than happy to buy a CD/DVD or buy an online download if one were to be available.

That's the bigger point. I wouldn't expect to hear this for free, and would not mind paying for a recording of it. Then again, there are tons of live concerts I've been to that fall in this category, and I think it's a good thing for our art that it's NOT simple to hear every great performance when we want to. Besides, if Gene's new "version" is a big hit (sounds like it might be?), I'd hope he would take the opportunity to record it for the people who would fully appreciate it...and not that "oh, the tuba wasn't awkward!" review he got from the newspaper review!

And Ken, I really didn't mean it that seriously. I'm closer to Chicago than you, but still far enough away that a concert ticket wouldn't do JS for me either, without several more kinds of tickets (train, plane, etc.) to get to the performance.

[brianf]

Come on guys! We are tuba players. It's Gene's solo, expect anything. Believe me, they watch out for recording devices - I've been busted a few times over the years. You have to admit, this video is great, wherever it came from.

[eupher61]

I wouldn't be surprised if Gene did that himself. Or Charlie.

[Alex C]

I heard Gene play on Tuesday afternoon. As stated, the cadenzas were reworked but more importantly, I feel, he pushed the musical aspects of this piece to the limits, technically and artistically. In the first movement, he transposed octaves to create a (logical) extension of some of the the musical linea. There were at least two times where he 'milked' the tempo at the end of a phrase. It was completely unexpected but shows how much musical thought went into the first movement. I expected that the 1st movement cadenza would be reworked and did not particularly care to hear a sub-octo-contrabass F played but he attacked the note like it was an easy thing to do while sitting on that stage.

The second movement was my favorite. Again, he used some rubato at cadences but his working of the last three lines was a thing of musical beauty. The tempo was flowing and it was easy to forget the tessitura he was playing. What a fine musician he is.

The last movement also had a couple of octave transpositions in it, extending the musical line. He may have even added notes but it was hard to hear. I was surprised to hear that the first three high C's (after triplet run-ups) were all treated differently. Instead of trilling as indicated, the first C was held, the second C was flutter-tongued and the last trilled. I don't know if I like it but showed how much thought he was putting into the performance.

The last cadenza was the most reworked and seemed to have the most original material in it. I thought he picked up themes from the other two movements before closing out.

I had, maybe, the worst seat position I could imagine. His bell throat was pointed at me and I could hear when there was water in the horn, every part of an attack, and when he had to snatch a quick breath (some of it through the horn). Even so, it was a performance worthy of the CSO.

NOT A SMALL STATEMENT when compared to the performance of the Beethoven 7th after intermission. The orchestra played the beejeebers out of it. Even the musicians seemed to be excited. Clevenger played the devilish horn parts as if it was an afternoon outing (which it was for him). The woodwinds were just perfect in blend, pitch and rhythm. The strings sounded like a different group than the one that played the Shoshtakovich on the first half; all fire and brimstone, sprightly or cantabile when needed. Of course, Jaap was all over the podium and I bet the grey haired ladies are thinking how good he would look on the podium when they need a new conductor.

I spent the next two days playing the Gemeinhart F and Eb tubas. All in all, a fine week for tubas.

[BVD Press]

and I think it's a good thing for our art that it's NOT simple to hear every great performance when we want to.

Although sort of another topic, I fall on the complete opposite side. I would have $5-10.00 to stream Gene into my living room. We have the technology and I really think orchestras need to start using it. It might hurt attendance, but may actually increase revenue. It sure works for sports and it hasn't hurt attendance.

[Michael Bush]

and I think it's a good thing for our art that it's NOT simple to hear every great performance when we want to.

Although sort of another topic, I fall on the complete opposite side. I would have $5-10.00 to stream Gene into my living room. We have the technology and I really think orchestras need to start using it. It might hurt attendance, but may actually increase revenue. It sure works for sports and it hasn't hurt attendance.

The Berlin Philharmonic does that. I don't remember what the price is, but it is available. I wish Chicago did it.

[Ken Herrick]

A fair amount of the CSO's programming does become available, either through the orchestr'as site, CSO.org or via WFMT radio which does some live streams and other downloads. Hopefully this will make it into one or the other's program schedule.

A former CSO member used to occasionally have a student sneak his little Uher recorder in............

[brianf]

I wouldn't be surprised if Gene did that himself. Or Charlie.

Gene? Charlie?? How could you get this idea???
I hear nothing, see nothing, know nothing!

[Ken Herrick]

DON'T monkey around Brian!!!!!!!!!!!

Get us a copy and I just might manage to get Gino's to make a delivery.

[MrBasseyPants]

Went to the CSO performance this evening. First off, I am not a symphony guy. I've lived in Chicago for 14 years and this is the first time that I have been. I've also never heard the Vaughan Williams Concerto before, and I really haven't been exposed to much in the way of featured tuba playing,

With that being said, the Shoshtakovich and Beethoven pieces were well done, but didn't hold my interest, However, gene's piece was fantastic. I was up in the nose-bleed seats and the bell was pointed right at me. LOVED IT! I didn't know the CSO York would be so shiny (well it looked shiny from the 6th floor)!

I really have nothing to compare it to, but I thought Gene's interpretation fit the piece very well. I also appreciate the difficulty in playing the tuba even more. Gene is a very good player and hearing an expert in his craft not be as fluid in some areas as I would expect....really drives home how difficult such a piece is. I am not faulting him, but as I have never heard a tuba concerto before...I expected the tuba cadenzas and such to be as nimble as say a flute....it's not...and I have no idea why I expected that. His playing was amazing, and it definitely showed off the awesome range of the instrument. It definitely game me some encouragement in my playing as well.

The weird thing to me was that many of the gray-hairs sitting around me seemed to be either disappointed or upset that there was a tuba soloist...like somehow it wasn't worthy. I didn't hear people come out and say it...but I kind of got that feeling. However, afterwards, everyone seemed very pleased with the performance.

There were also many school groups up in the gallery as well...it was good to see many young people there to enjoy the show as well...most of them seemed excited to hear a tuba soloist.

jc

[bort]

and I think it's a good thing for our art that it's NOT simple to hear every great performance when we want to.

Although sort of another topic, I fall on the complete opposite side. I would have $5-10.00 to stream Gene into my living room. We have the technology and I really think orchestras need to start using it. It might hurt attendance, but may actually increase revenue. It sure works for sports and it hasn't hurt attendance.

Whoops... I forgot the very important words "for free." I also think that paid streaming, like Berlin does, is a cool idea!

[eupher61]

Agreed, as far as the VW goes. Totally honest evaluation of the entire performance. Thanks for sharing it!

I personally wish I could have heard the Beethoven too. Clevinger won't be there all that much longer, comparatively, and that's one of THE horn tunes, in my estimation. He's been getting some bad reviews in the last couple of years, so it was good to read that he nailed it.

[happyroman]

I may get flamed for writing this, but it is my honest opinion. I will preface my comments by saying that Gene is a fabulous player, possibly the greatest in the world. Certainly he is in the group photo of the greatest orchestral tubists of all time.

However, I did not care for his interpretation of the RVW Wednesday night. I went to the concert for the sole purpose of hearing Gene perform the Vaughan-Williams Concerto for Bass-Tuba. I did not expect, nor desire, to hear the Concerto for Contrabass-Tube, as arranged by Gene Pokorny. Had I been aware that he was going to make the changes he did, I may have chosen not to attend, or would at least have had different expectations.

I have no issue with a performer writing their own cadenzas. This is a common and accepted performance practice. However, the inclusion of the pedal register playing, while impressive to someone that understands what they are actually hearing, I believe was a questionable decision. First, it necessitated performing the work on the contrabass tuba, which even in a virtuoso's hands (such as Gene) is unwieldy, at best. To the general audience, as my wife succinctly put it, the low notes sounded "blatty." In general, I think that audience members want to hear something beautiful, and the extreme low register of the tuba would not normally be described that way.

Also, the use of the larger instrument results in a muddying of the sound to a certain degree, due to the nonsoloistic nature of the beast. By the time the sound arrives at the far reaches of the hall, the clarity of playing is lost to a certain degree. While not note perfect to begin with (and the next time I hear a note perfect live performance will be the first), the challenge of getting the music across is made even more difficult due to the acoustical nature of the larger instrument.

I was sitting in the lower balcony, and could practically look down Gene's bell. There were passages that simply sounded blurred and inarticulate on the York that would very likely have sounded better on an F Tuba. I'm sure had I been seated next to Gene, things would have sounded crystal clear. Unfortunately, that was not the case and I have to make judgments based on what I could hear from my seat in the audience.

Finally, I understand that Gene spent a great deal of time doing his "research" to determine where appropriate changes to the score could be made. However, his decisions to transpose octaves, change articulations, and make changes to tempo which are not specifically indicated in the score, in my opinion, went too far. I don't recall ever hearing Herseth taking sections of the Haydn up (or down) an octave, etc., and I didn't particularly want to hear Gene do it in performance the other night.

Maybe I'm just an old fart and am too conservative in my views, but I know what I like when I hear it. Unfortunately, I didn't hear it Wednesday evening.

[eupher61]

According to the interview posted on the CSO site, he many of those changes BECAUSE he chose to do it on the York, not that he chose to do it on the York because of the changes. At least, that's how I heard it.

One interesting thing I just learned, and the backstory: Based on a suggestion here, I just bought Gary Birds "Program Notes" book. The VW listing says the composer said the finale was to be more of a German waltz, not a tempo di kicka$$ flamethrower. The author of that note suggests there's even a little "oom pah" that way. A much different perspective, which makes me start to like that movement a little more.

[PMeuph]

Finally, I understand that Gene spent a great deal of time doing his "research" to determine where appropriate changes to the score could be made. However, his decisions to (1)transpose octaves, 92)change articulations, and make changes to tempo which are not specifically indicated in the score, in my opinion, went too far. I don't recall ever hearing Herseth taking sections of the Haydn up (or down) an octave, etc., and I didn't particularly want to hear Gene do it in performance the other night.

You are absolutely entitled to have your opinion. It's unfortunate that you were disappointed...

Not to flame away, but here are the issues that I raise to your statements... The first one is hypothetical and not that important, but the second one is worth investigating more...

(1) How is this different than playing the second movement on Cello and not being able to play the low B natural so taking p the octave the whole phrase?


(2) So there is only one set of articulations for this piece and every edition conveniently shows this?

[ScotGJ]

Re: CSO - VW!!!!!!
by bloke » Sat May 19, 2012 10:59 am

Gene has played a lot of stuff a bunch of times. Additionally, he's listened to an endless parade of students play this piece extraordinarily well, fairly well, fair, poorly, and extraordinary badly. Realistically, he may not be playing many more years (5...?? 10...?? 15...??). Were I him, I might be looking for new angles and ways to entertain myself (rather than a carbon copy of the same puppet show). He's not in the restrictive position of walking some Tuba Players Gallery Approval Tightrope. He is in a position to (within a wide range of acceptable limits, regarding this piece) do much as he pleases. There are spotless-to-dismal live and Pro-Tools recordings of this piece played on an endless array of F tubas. The CSO (seemingly) has a longstanding tradition of "using that tuba, if possible". I can see why he chose it. Moreover, I know him just well enough to know how much he loves playing that tuba. I sincerely hope he entertained himself. I know he entertained others - even those who may have found his performance controversial.

Well said! Sounds to me like he was being a creative artist.

[UDELBR]

his decisions to transpose octaves, change articulations, and make changes to tempo which are not specifically indicated in the score, in my opinion, went too far. I don't recall ever hearing Herseth taking sections of the Haydn up (or down) an octave, etc., and I didn't particularly want to hear Gene do it in performance the other night.

This isn't much different than Gene's decision to play the Berlioz "Dies Irae" down 2 octaves. Berlioz knew what the tuba was capable of, certainly never wrote that, and would have taken a pretty dim view of someone doing that. I've posted this Berlioz quote before:

"No, no, no, a million times no! You musicians, you poets, prose-writers,
actors, pianists, conductors, whether of third or second or even first
rank, you do not have the right to meddle with a Shakespeare or a
Beethoven, not even to bestow on them the blessings of your knowledge and
taste."

"Is this not the utter ruin and destruction of art? And ought not we, all
of us who are in love with the glory of art and vigilant to protect the
inalienable rights of the human spirit, ought we not, when we see them
attacked, to rise up in our wrath and pursue and indict the malefactor, and
cry aloud for all to hear, "Your crime is contemptible--despair! Your
stupidity is criminal--die! May you be scorned! May you be hissed and
hooted! May you be accursed! Despair and die!"

That said, I wish I coulda heard it.

[PMeuph]

This isn't much different than Gene's decision to play the Berlioz "Dies Irae" down 2 octaves. Berlioz knew what the tuba was capable of, certainly never wrote that, and would have taken a pretty dim view of someone doing that. I've posted this Berlioz quote before:

"No, no, no, a million times no! You musicians, you poets, prose-writers,
actors, pianists, conductors, whether of third or second or even first
rank, you do not have the right to meddle with a Shakespeare or a
Beethoven, not even to bestow on them the blessings of your knowledge and
taste."

"Is this not the utter ruin and destruction of art? And ought not we, all
of us who are in love with the glory of art and vigilant to protect the
inalienable rights of the human spirit, ought we not, when we see them
attacked, to rise up in our wrath and pursue and indict the malefactor, and
cry aloud for all to hear, "Your crime is contemptible--despair! Your
stupidity is criminal--die! May you be scorned! May you be hissed and
hooted! May you be accursed! Despair and die!"

Anyone who has read quite a bit of Berlioz' writings can say that Berlioz is one of the most over the top control freaks out there. His writings are filled with humorous over-the-top anecdotes and the glorification of himself. Fun read, but his words need to be taken with a grain of salt, or a truck-load of salt....