Helicon vs Sousaphone

[Donn]

Hello Walter, I think I'm the person who sold that King 4 valve helicon to you.

Ah, I remember that one. The image of that helicon, resting in a leather armchair, is practically burned into my brain, I admit I lusted after it.

[Walter Webb]

Yes, that's the very one. It is a goodie, and a keeper. I have not played it since last Christmas because I went all BBb and am concentrating on those fingerings. Eventually, I will be fluent in BBb and Eb. Early 40s King, 4p, Eb Helicon made from a Souzy, with an Olds CC bell.

Hello Walter, I think I'm the person who sold that King 4 valve helicon to you.

Ah, I remember that one. The image of that helicon, resting in a leather armchair, is practically burned into my brain, I admit I lusted after it.

[mark38655]

I have fond memories of that helicon. I'm glad you are enjoying playing it. It had an amazingly good scale on it. The idea to convert it to a helicon came by accident.

I had purchased the sousaphone without the bell on ebay thinking it would be easy to find a bell for it. (not the case at all). At the time I had bought a York Eb tuba and an Olds BBb 4 front action tuba that I would use with the outer branches and bell from the York to make a frankentuba. One day I arranged all my tubas and spare parts on the couch for a photo shoot. After taking the pic I noticed that the bell of the Olds (which happened to be right beside the sousa body) might be a perfect fit if I removed that last big crook that connects to the sousa bell. I then proceeded to take out my trusty hack saw and started cutting on the bell, (I cut it a few inches too long on purpose because I didn't know how long it would need to be to play in tube with A 440. I shoved the bell inside the sousa and wrapped some duct tape around it. What surprised me first was the tone, then when I put a tuner to it, it was spot on with A 440!

I paid Joe Sellmansberger at Mid-South Music to do a professional job of cutting, soldering buffing and lacquering and patching a spot that a younger, less experienced repair person had burned in the bell. The result was very rewarding because, not only did I transform the Sousa into something really good and practical, I also transformed that York and Olds valve section into a very good 4/4 CC tuba that is still one of my favorite tubas in my arsenal.

[bububassboner]

Helicons definitely play and sound very similar to a tuba. Sousaphones do have the extra bend right at the end of the bell and also usually have a huge bell flair, the sound is more distorted and quite a bit less focused. Where a tuba or helicon can project and articulate the sousa can merely ooomph and support at a wider level, unless of course you decide to unleash the demonic blatt.

Sousaphones can sound very nice, but only in the hands of a really good player.

No.

I'm not sure what sousaphone you have been playing on, but in the rest of the world there is no difference between how a helicon, tuba, raincatcher, or sousaphone sounds.
I've heard plenty of people sound much better on a sousaphone than on a tuba.

Sorry man but I agree with fairweather. I personally hate the huge bell flare on sousaphones. Articulation is just not as clear and the sound is very spread. It's just harder to sound as good on them than a good concert tuba. There is a reason concert tubas don't have big 24 inch bells. I would love to see a more modern sousaphone with a better designed neck/bits and a much smaller bell flare. Hell tuning slides that I could use while playing doesn't seem like too much to ask for. I would pretty much always go for a helicon.

[Donn]

Honestly, I am not always so happy to play my sousaphone, but have to remember - more than any other kind of tuba, what we hear as player is not what everyone hears out front.

The reason upright tubas don't have 24 inch bells, would be mainly because it would be a lot of brass added to make the sound more directional, in the wrong direction - true?

[bububassboner]

Honestly, I am not always so happy to play my sousaphone, but have to remember - more than any other kind of tuba, what we hear as player is not what everyone hears out front.

The reason upright tubas don't have 24 inch bells, would be mainly because it would be a lot of brass added to make the sound more directional, in the wrong direction - true?

I find that the larger the bell flare, the less directional the sound gets. Even bass trombones that have the 10 1/2 inch bells (compared to 9 1/2inch) can get very spread. Making a sousaphone bell 20 inches instead of 24 inches would...

Make the horn more focused,
reduce the weight of the horn,
reduce chance of hitting doorways with bell,
increase player's field of vision

All these things seem like a win to me. To me the sousaphone seems stuck in the early 1900s. Tubas have come a LONG way since then and I think it's time the sousaphone got a makeover. Sorry that's just my rant about sousaphones.

[jacobg]

How much does a typical American 3 piston valve Bb Helicon weigh vs. Sousaphone?
What about a 3 piston Eb Helicon?
Do they really weigh less than comparable Sousaphones?
Mark Rubin has a helicon with a detachable bell that fits in a sousaphone hard case for travel (although the case is modified so that a joint compound bucket fits over the bell.)

[tofu]

How much does a typical American 3 piston valve Bb Helicon weigh vs. Sousaphone?
What about a 3 piston Eb Helicon?
Do they really weigh less than comparable Sousaphones?
Mark Rubin has a helicon with a detachable bell that fits in a sousaphone hard case for travel (although the case is modified so that a joint compound bucket fits over the bell.)

I've never weighed mine, but my guess is it seems like 25-30% less. Part of the perceived difference for me is that the helicons just have a much better balance both when wearing the instrument as well as when just holding/walking with it in one hand. I've got a 30K helicon which I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) was the basis for the 14K sousaphone. I don't have a brass 14K, but I do have a 36K sousaphone which (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is the fiberglass version of the 14K. If I recall the 36K weighs 16 lbs. (incredibly light for a sousaphone) and the difference in comparison to the King I use is huge. Part of the difference in weight and ungainliness amongst two identical sousaphones is going to be the size of the bell as a 26 inch bell is going to be heavier than a 24 inch one etc. The 36K seems to weigh about the same as my 30K helicon. The 1931 1250 King with a 24 in. bell I use seems to me to weigh around 24 lbs and it sure feels a lot heavier on the shoulder for gigs and parades.

[jacobg]

So
BBb Sousaphone = 25 lbs
BBb Helicon = 20 lbs
BBb Fiberglass Sousaphone = 16 lbs
EEb Sousaphone = ?
EEb Helicon = ?

[Paul Scott]

I feel that less "flange" on a sousa bell will give more of a tuba response and sound, making a sousa/helicon more of a "directional tuba". While a few sousa bells seem to be bigger proportionately, (meaning connector, throat AND flange-I have a 30" Buescher sousa bell in this category) most are "bigger" only due to more flange. My 30" Martin tuba recording bell is identical to a 24" version in connector and throat, but just has more flange.

If I play a trad jazz gig (trio or quartet) that requires mobility, I use my Martin sousa which has a smaller 23" bell. This seems to tighten things up response-wise. For a marching band of 20 or so playing the great old march repertoire I prefer my Conn 40K which is equipped with a 24" bell.

One phenomenon that I've noticed is that bigger sousa bells sound better further away. My ridiculously big (in every way) Buescher sousa sounds great a) outside and b) from about 20 feet or more away. I know of some Conn Jumbo owners who have reported the same thing.

BTW, some people DID adjust rain-catcher sousa bells to be at more of a 45 degree angle, perhaps for more projection. There are several photos of John Kuhn that show that.

[Donn]

BTW, some people DID adjust rain-catcher sousa bells to be at more of a 45 degree angle, perhaps for more projection. There are several photos of John Kuhn that show that.

I have a vague and elusive memory of reading that this was what Sousa specifically wanted. It is kind of a sensible compromise, if you don't want them to point right at the audience but you recognize that most other instruments are pointed forward for a reason.

[bububassboner]

I feel that less "flange" on a sousa bell will give more of a tuba response and sound, making a sousa/helicon more of a "directional tuba". While a few sousa bells seem to be bigger proportionately, (meaning connector, throat AND flange-I have a 30" Buescher sousa bell in this category) most are "bigger" only due to more flange. My 30" Martin tuba recording bell is identical to a 24" version in connector and throat, but just has more flange.

Bingo,
Sousaphones have an unneeded amount of bell flare. 24 inches is just too big. Standard sousaphones, like the Yamaha sousaphone, don't have 6/4 size branches yet have a bell which is 4 inches bigger than most 6/4 tubas. Could you imagine a Holton 345 with a 24 inch bell? Yuck, things need to be in proportion and sousaphones just aren't.

So
BBb Sousaphone = 25 lbs
BBb Helicon = 20 lbs

This is important to me too. Weight might not be a big thing for someone who does a few parades a year but for those who do a few change of commands a week that weight difference is huge. The only big difference from the two is the bell. There really is no need for such a bell. Yet as most sousaphone sales go to high school and college band, I don't see any company putting any money into improving the sousaphone.

[Lew]

The smaller bells on Helicons make them sound 'farty' outdoors, imo. Sousaphones sound better outdoors. imo.

This might be true if all helicons had smaller bells. I have a Distin helicon from about 1900 with a 30" bell, while my Conn 40K sousaphone only has a 24" bell. Even so, I find the sousaphone to be a better player, both because of the larger bore and smaller bell. In any case, the nice thing about a sousaphone is that, when assembled and used properly, the bell faces more to the front while that on a helicon will invariably face more to the side. I did like the raincatchers that I have owned and played, but if I were marching I would still go with the bell front sousaphone.

[tofu]

I've never weighed mine, but my guess is it seems like 25-30% less. Part of the perceived difference for me is that the helicons just have a much better balance both when wearing the instrument as well as when just holding/walking with it in one hand. I've got a 30K helicon which I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) was the basis for the 14K sousaphone. I don't have a brass 14K, but I do have a 36K sousaphone which (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is the fiberglass version of the 14K. If I recall the 36K weighs 16 lbs. (incredibly light for a sousaphone) and the difference in comparison to the King I use is huge. Part of the difference in weight and ungainliness amongst two identical sousaphones is going to be the size of the bell as a 26 inch bell is going to be heavier than a 24 inch one etc. The 36K seems to weigh about the same as my 30K helicon. The 1931 1250 King with a 24 in. bell I use seems to me to weigh around 24 lbs and it sure feels a lot heavier on the shoulder for gigs and parades.

First off, you compared a brass instrument to a primarily fiberglass instrument... of course the fiberglass 36K is going to weigh less

No I never said that I was comparing it against a fiberglass instrument. I mentioned that I felt that helicons weighed 25-30% less. I merely mentioned the 36K as the one instrument I knew the weight of, that it shared the same body as the helicon and to give some reference as to how it related to the weight of the helicon I had. I assumed that the average Tubenet reader could deduct by their own reasoning that therefore a brass 14K which is the same body as the 30K and the 36K would be heavier and probably in the vicinity of the 25-30% I had offered up in the first part of my response. I was merely offering my opinion formed from my experience doing over a 1000 gigs with the helicon and a huge number with a wide variety of sousaphones. Perhaps I could have written it in a clearer fashion, but some of us have real jobs other than reviewing tubenet posts to find imaginary things to roll our eyes at.

[bububassboner]

Since were talking about weight differences - if you consistently play with a heavier instrument, your body will, over time, become accustomed to the weight. Your whole point about the weigh being an issue, is mostly invalidated once you take into account the fact that you don't tend to notice the weight as much once you played with it for longer periods of time.

What? Yes just push through and you'll be fine forever. Tell that to all the retired Army tuba players with back problems or the Med Boarded Infantry guy who carried ruck packs everyday for 16 years that it'll be fine just do it more. Yes, as a young person in my 20s I can march around everyday and just deal with it. However, when I get to be in my 40s I don't want to be broken. I am someone that uses a sousaphone a lot, I like my job, and I want to be able to do what I do for many years to come. The "suck it up" method tends not to be so great down the road.

3. The somewhat standard size of the sousaphone has remained rather unchanged for the past 100+ years.
King and Conn have been making essentially the same body and bell since the introduction of the recording bell sousaphone. If there were so many problems with a large bell, as many people here claim there to be, one would think that one of these manufacturers would change their design to better fit the market. What's the saying? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Or...
As you said, there is no Professional market. Why would a company spend time and money improving a horn that is going to be used mostly for students with little experience playing tuba? How many high school and college bands ask for people to pick up sousaphone for marching band? I would say most of them. Other than Military bands and a few number of freelance players almost all sousaphone use is by students. With this in mind, it makes plenty of sense why companies don't work on improving the sousaphone.

Again, I don't think any company is ever going to try to improve the sousaphone. The best shot for a better sousaphone would be to custom order a bell and have some like Dan Oberloh flip the First valve tuning slide and make a better neck and bit system. I would love to do this myself but alas my E4 pay makes that kinda hard. Maybe down the road.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Time for a helicon forum/website.......

mark

[Donn]

Again, I don't think any company is ever going to try to improve the sousaphone. The best shot for a better sousaphone would be to custom order a bell and have some like Dan Oberloh flip the First valve tuning slide and make a better neck and bit system. I would love to do this myself but alas my E4 pay makes that kinda hard. Maybe down the road.

Some of this came up here not too long ago, and I thought the bell reduction surgery was deemed to be pretty simple, with a wire soldered on afterwards. `Proof of concept' would be even easier.

A good leadpipe could be a huge step up. Modern helicons made in Europe at least have one piece necks, instead of three piece.

[toobagrowl]

The smaller bells on Helicons make them sound 'farty' outdoors, imo. Sousaphones sound better outdoors. imo.

This might be true if all helicons had smaller bells. I have a Distin helicon from about 1900 with a 30" bell, while my Conn 40K sousaphone only has a 24" bell. Even so, I find the sousaphone to be a better player, both because of the larger bore and smaller bell. In any case, the nice thing about a sousaphone is that, when assembled and used properly, the bell faces more to the front while that on a helicon will invariably face more to the side. I did like the raincatchers that I have owned and played, but if I were marching I would still go with the bell front sousaphone.

I guess we always have to be specific on this board. Anyway, I am talking about the eastern European & some old American helicons with 15"-18" bells. Those smaller bells - especially 'fixed' and pointed in your direction - give a dry, farty sound compared to 24"+ bell sousaphones outside.

Bingo,
Sousaphones have an unneeded amount of bell flare. 24 inches is just too big. Standard sousaphones, like the Yamaha sousaphone, don't have 6/4 size branches yet have a bell which is 4 inches bigger than most 6/4 tubas. Could you imagine a Holton 345 with a 24 inch bell? Yuck, things need to be in proportion and sousaphones just aren't.

I think the big bell flares on sousaphones make them sound better outdoors since there are no acoustics outdoors. Tubas sound great indoors because they have the needed inherent clarity and resonance with the indoor acoustics giving more 'blossom' and richness to the sound. The hall/auditorium/room you play your tuba in *IS* a huge part of your sound. Sousaphones, with their typical 24"+ bells may sound a bit woofy/muddy indoors, but imo, sound better outdoors than most tubas & helicons because that bigger bell flare adds more richness/resonance and somewhat 'compensates' for the lack of acoustics outdoors.

[sloan]

The "suck it up" method tends not to be so great down the road.

Quitcherbitchin'

Last Memorial Day, I marched a Sousaphone a couple of miles, including 2 flights up a spiral staircase and the last 1/4 mile UP a serious hill. I am, ahem, not in the best shape (unless your idea of "best shape" is "round"), even if you don't count my artificial heart valve. I managed to (just barely) keep up with the young whippersnappers who are attending college 40+ years after I did.

Properly worn, a Sousaphone balances nicely enough that you can walk short distances "no hands". According to my observations, most folk my age carry at least as much extra weight around the middle as a Sousaphone weighs.

I will grant you that it LOOKS big and awkward, and any problems you might have are realEasy to blame on carrying the horn - but I just don't believe it. Perhaps people with weirdly shaped shoulders (like Denney) have legitimate issues.

Suck it up - you get to complain when you have to ice skate and perform a counter-march (counter-skate?) while playing one. And even then, the bass drum player has a whole lot more to complain about.

And remember - Verdi *loved* the sound of the Sousaphone. Be glad you don't have to march a cimbasso, or a Glockenspiel.

[Donn]

I'm not so young myself and still hoist the 40K for a stroll from time to time, and I'd hate to foster a generation of weaklings, but ... he knows what he's talking about. If you could shave a few pounds off the sousaphone while making it sound better, by cutting off the extra flare, then that would be very good news for players.

But my guess is that tooba's right about what would happen to the sound. Maybe what the pro sousa player needs is a 24-26 inch fiberglass (or whatever) front bell for outdoors, and an 18 inch 45-degree brass bell for indoors. Or an 18 bell with a detachable fiberglass 6 inch flare, though I don't have a detailed idea how that would work.