Miraphone 1291 wrap & price change?

[Matt G]

Here's my question:
I know that dealers will always pass on the price increase from the manufacturer to the consumer (due to our widening exchange rate).
But what about the inventory that the dealer already purchased at the old price? Most dealers only receive tuba shipments a few times a year. I've seen very little hesitation by some dealers to go ahead and sell products, purchased at last quarters prices, and mark them up with the new stock. I suppose its not necessarily a bad way to do business, but it makes it hard on someone (like me) who wants to buy a new miraphone.
Darn it.

LIFO vs. FIFO (Last In/First Out versus First In/First Out)

Also, because a business like WWBW is a continuous business, in fact a corporation, with its own lifespan, they would best be suited to sell inventory based on replacement costs.

When pricing use LIFO. This protects your profit margins on items with volatile pricing. When accounting and financial reporting, use FIFO (a lot of firms do) to reflect maximum profit. Few firms use a cost average, because it generally takes too much effort to maintain and verify a running average.

Anyhow, I have to agree with Chuck on the inflation issue. If you want to buy any goods, foreign or domestic, do these purchases soon, especially if they require financing. We are properly set up to incur mid to late 1970's type inflation figures. In addition to the Chinese about to let their currency float freely, we have limited resources to combat inflation because Fed rates are so low. Clarinet playing Greenspan has been trying to move these rates up to give himself some room, but I fear that the rates won't be in the proper place in time.

Yeah, If you are even thinking about buying a foreign made tuba, financing makes a lot of sense right now.

[Rick Denney]

Yes. Or, No.

Rick "who couldn't let a political thread go by without comment" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

And to take this a step further, I am not offended by your comments or sentiments, I simply disagree with them. My point is really intended to question whether or not we should take occasional forays into the politics realm... I try hard to restrain myself when I am so inclined.

Ray, I understand entirely and agree that we should strive to keep politics out of the discussions here as much as possible. But the topic was a set-up to me--it had nothing to do with music, per se--only the question of "why the heck are tubas suddenly so expensive?" (for "tubas" you could substitute any number of other items, such as "Italian bicycles") How can one answer that (and the consequent questions it engenders) without being political?

If they ever read any of my fan mail to them, I'm sure my congressmen probably feel the same way you do.

[Rick Denney]

Based on opinions expressed here, the quality of the new Kings and Conns are less then desired. Plus, their prices have been awfully high for what you get, IMHO.

I think you may be overstating things a bit.

Kings are reasonably well made. They are not finished as well as $3500 rotary tubas, but they are better than $2500 rotary tubas. There was some inconsistency in the first year, but since then the new Kings seem to be more consistent. No, they do not enjoy the lavish attention that 1241's of old did, but then they don't cost the same in real dollars.

Cost and price are two different things, and have to be considered separately. King clearly determined that the 2341 would not be successful commercially at a price point higher than it is, by which I mean it would be too expensive to sell to schools. They adjusted their cost accordingly to achieve that price point and still make a profit. That's why the King is not as nicely finished as the Conn, even though it is nearly identical in design.

Nobody ever questioned the build quality of the Getzen G50, as I recall, but the price was much higher. In fact, the price point was too high and the market at that price point insufficient to sustain production. Too bad: The G50 seemed to me like a wonderful small 4/4 CC tuba. In that case, the cost could not be reduced sufficeiently to support an acceptable price. So, nobody gets a new G50 any more. We vote with our wallets.

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/may2001 ... 54571.html

The King isn't as well made as a Miraphone, but it's not nearly as expensive either. And that gap is widening with the strong Euro. But I'm not sure the Euro will stay that strong, nor am I as worried as Chuck. Manufacturing will move back to the U.S., but such moves are glacially slow. For a manufacturer to commit to building a U.S. production capability, they have to be sure it will be profitable to do so over the long haul. So, they wait to be sure of what they are seeing.

One thing's for sure: As long as people in the rest of the world are content to work for much lower real wages (and who could blame them?--it beats scratching the dirt and starving like many were doing before), only a weak dollar will support manufacturing in the U.S. A strong dollar is a consumer's dollar, not a worker's dollar. Problem is, most workers are also consumers.

Rick "tired of worrying" Denney

[Matt G]

...I just wish that (particularly now that all of those companies are owned by Steinway) *Selmer, U.S.A. had never tossed the tooling in the trash for their .730" bore Bundy/Buescher fiberglass sousaphone. I think that valveset (enhanced with a 4th piston, obviously) would have been a better choice for the "Conn" CC instruments...

...and (thinking back) when Selmer first bought the F.E. Olds tooling in 1980, without much work, they could have fit that same .730" bore valveset on the "Bach Mercedes" (formerly Olds O-99 & Reynolds TB-10) tuba, rather than the peashooter (.640", I think) valveset that was supplied...and possibly saved money by only making one valveset for the Bundy sousa and the Bach tuba...

...oh well
________________________
*nor Conn their .734" bore 'standard' valveset, for that matter...and why didn't they consider schticking the 20K "short-action+1" .734" bore valveset on the new "Conn" CC?

Now, Joe...

Why would anyone suggest 'Design For Manufacture" or Modular Design in this day and age?

FWIW, I truly wanted to buy a Conn Eb Bell + King BBb parts + 4 Short action pistons and a rotor that Matt Walters had made many moons ago, before the Conn/King stuff came to market. IMHO, that horn played much better than the smaller valveset horns and better than the horn with the "Long Stroke" .734 bore set that I played years later. It was amazing how smooth and fast the short action valves were: piston blow and feel with the short stroke of a rotor.

The only reported problem is the story of the only guy who can make the 20K sets being old and the only one who can turn out the knuckles needed to connect the valves (??????). I guess they can't train anybody else to make these things. I suspect that they ultimately don't really care about the 20K line seeing as they have the King Sousa/Conn 14(Same as the King now)K. They will keep making 20K's at the same pace until they no longer have the skilled labor to make it. Or, some bonehead will probably buy some Yamaha sousa's and relabel them the "New and Improved" 20K when the time comes.

The guys in Germany (B&S, VMI, M-W) use basically ONE valveset for all piston tubas. The M-W sets have the same branches and the VMI/B&S sets have the same branches. I suspect as many parts are tranferable along these lines are used as possible beyond the valve cluster.

It does amaze me that Mirafone can crank out these new 1291's so cheaply compared to other brands. I suspect that they have a cash reserve they are tapping due to the fact that they hald sold 186's and 187/188's (Ultra Modular horns)and other stuff for years at a good price point.

I'm guessing that Selmer/Steinway is going to continue to use the King Valveset in perpetuity because they have been producing those things forever and the only costs left to pay for is materials and labor, i.e. no fixed costs. The problem with using something from Conn, is that the only thing that was left in regular production is the iffy short action set and the even smaller 5J set. Oh yeah, the even smaller stuff is from somewhere that they use on the upright valve tubas, I;m not sure if it is internal or external.

[Matt G]

To follow up my post I have a good story:

Years ago some Ford Executives were touring a Toyota plant in Japan. Ford wanted to find out how Toyota could turn out so many cars with so few defects at such a low price.

Throughout the tour, Toyota Executives would continue to mention how they have been doing things according to "The Book". The Ford guys had no idea what book this was. Was it a treatise on how to do things the "Toyota" way? Was it some German text on high-tech manufacturing? They had no idea.

The Ford Execs continued throughout the tour to hear references. Their curiosity grew until one of them had enough courage at the end of the tour to ask about the book. The Toyota Execs replied: Henry Ford's Autobiography My Life and Work.

Ford had even gone so far as to specify how the packaging/crating of the parts that were shipped in was to be made. This is because he would then use these materials to make floorboards and beds for the truck, etc.

The only color was black. Why? Because it dried the fastest.

So...

Ultimately there is no reason why we cannot offer a good range of domestic tubas at a reasonable price. It takes creativity and good business savvy. Tubas are tough due to volume, but it is certainly possible. I would certainly imagine that the rate of pay for a Mirafone builder has been on par for a US musical instrument factory worker for many years.

[Chuck(G)]

Nobody ever questioned the build quality of the Getzen G50, as I recall, but the price was much higher. In fact, the price point was too high and the market at that price point insufficient to sustain production. Too bad: The G50 seemed to me like a wonderful small 4/4 CC tuba. In that case, the cost could not be reduced sufficeiently to support an acceptable price. So, nobody gets a new G50 any more. We vote with our wallets.

Scuttlebutt is that Getzen's going to revive the G50, so stay tuned.

I don't worry about the euro-dollar exchange rate until it starts to manifest itself in across-the-board inflation. All that does is require a different approach to investing.

[cjk]

Scuttlebutt is that Getzen's going to revive the G50, so stay tuned.

My understanding is that parts of the G50 were made by Meinl-Weston, shipped here, then assembled in the USA. I don't see how Getzen could revive the G50 at a reasonable cost short of making the parts over here or subcontracting the bits elsewhere. Ie, the stinky dollar would affect the manufacturing costs of the G50 in the same way (assuming they were manufactured the way they were before) as it would affect the cost of Meinl-Weston instruments.

Of course, I don't see why some folks like the G50 and hate the Conns, why the .687 bore G50 seems to be revered and the Conn .687, 730, .750 bore 5xJs seem to be criticized.




Christian, who likes the Conns, dislikes the G50, but owns neither

[Rick Denney]

bloke "who played a sales rep.'s CB(G)-50 for two minutes when they first came out, and told him he could put it back in the bag"

Everyone reacts differently, I suppose. Every CB(G)-50 I've played has invited me warmly to keep playing, while the Conns have been efficient but less inviting.

Interestingly, vis a vis the graduated bore, I greatly prefer the King 2341 over the Conn, but that may be a BBb thing.

On the other hand, what do I know?

Rick "just a second-rate amateur" Denney

[Tabor]

When I tried the Mirafone 1291, I played a few notes and my wife went and said, you should buy one of those!


Ug, I knew the price would go up.

-T