Frustrated with Yamaha

oldbandnerd · Post by **oldbandnerd** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:17 pm

I too was trying to get a Yamaha 321 but was told there would be at least 3 months minimum wait.
I did a ton of research here on the old Tubenet threads and other places about the Weril H980. I found many favorable threads here. Very few unfavorable. A good friend of mine went to The US ARMY TUBA CONV. and tried a lot of different models . He is a middle school band director and wants to replace his aging inventory of Jupiter euphs. He chose the Weril as the most bang for his buck !!!!

A local Tuba professional here in Richmond,Va. has recommneded the Weril to some of his students.

I have decided on the Weril H980 silver. I ordered from The Tuba Exchange . I paid $1,195 + $35 shipping . It will be here next week .

Also, you can seek out Joe Sellsmanbereger here on the Tubnet . He is Weril dealer. I believe he has 4 silvers in stock. His are similarly priced.

Yamaha has made a great reputation and name for themselves. Their YEP 321 have been considered the best in the 4v intermediate catagory for years. It is a shame they have decided to cut their production .

Also, ther has been a glut of excellent used Yamahas for sell on Ebay. Going for as little as $850. I have even seen a couple of compensating models there for about $2,000.

I hope this help you in your search. Good Luck .

Dave Hayami · Post by **Dave Hayami** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:26 pm

Hi,
Steve Ferguson (Hornguys.com) lists a Weril 980s, and is in SoCal(La Crescenta) Maybe take a drive up and check it out.
Dave Hayami

DonShirer · Post by **DonShirer** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:49 am

A friend has a Weril and it both sounds and looks great. If you are interested in used models, there have been 21 YEP321's offered for sale on eBay since January 1, about half in good or better condition. One other possibility: you might consider a Sterling euph, a British standard.

Don S.
Westbrook, CT.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:24 am

Bob Mosso wrote:Would the recommendations change if I admitted that the $ isn't really an issue. I'd like to get one of the best (if not the best) non-comp euphoniums available, I thought the 321 was it. I'm willing to pay more if it gets me a better instrument..

In that case, have you considered the WIllson 2704?

https://www.wwbw.com/Willson-Model-2704 ... .music?t=4

Yours for a mere $3500.

Captain Sousie · Post by **Captain Sousie** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:32 am

Chuck(G) wrote:Yours for a mere $3500.

And well worth it.

Sou

KarlMarx · Post by **KarlMarx** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:33 am

Carolus Recommendarius

KarlMarx · Post by **KarlMarx** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:47 am

Quod wollte sÃ¤lge Ã Amerigo, when het dollar este sur het vÃ¤rde von het Mao Localis Idioticus.

Carolus Despectandibus

Ryan_Beucke · Post by **Ryan_Beucke** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:10 am

Bob Mosso,

You say money is not the problem, but I'm curious, why not go for a compensating euph? Is it not a problem within the non-comp price range?

I've never tried the Willson non-comp horn, but I have to assume it would be one of the best non-comps around. If that's too much though, I would still recommend the 321, as it's really a great horn. And if the small shank thing gets annoying, you can always replace the leadpipe with a large shank one.

JayW · Post by **JayW** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:20 am

not sure what the availability is, but the Besson 7xx series has a 3+1 non-compensating horn that is really nice. Probably right in the $$ range of the yamaha too, I think.

Bob Mosso · Post by **Bob Mosso** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:49 am

Karlmarx, what brand is that? I can't tell by the picture. (and which language, I tried to translate with altavista.com)

The Willson 2704 has always tempted me, a couple recent bad comments about the 2704 made me hesitate.
viewtopic.php?p=47130&highlight=#47130
I'll search for and re-read all the 2704 comments, and re-assess.

The Besson 7065 has been on my list, many comments about build inconsistencies. In southern CA I don't know of a place where I could go find a "good one".

Why non-comp? The comments about a stuffy sound when using the 4th vavle scares me. I love playing the euphonium because of the resonant dark sound, even just a little bit "stuffy" isn't the type of sound I want. I want to be able to have a powerful resonant tone in the lower register (when the music dictates).

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:33 pm

Do yourself a favor and try the Willson 2704 if you're looking for a non-comp 4-top action instrument. I thought the one I tried played better than the 2900 (heresy, I know!).

But don't let the "stuffy" issue of a compensator bother you--you can adjust to ithe different feeling very quickly. The state of things is that top=line euphoniums are built as compensators--so you might as well go with the flow. You get the benefit of being able to play chromatically down to the pedal.

I think the photo that K. has posted is a Yamaha 621--a non-comp 3+1, but not available in the USA. Don't even bother with trying to translate K's writing--he has his own argot made up of several languages.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:39 pm

Bob Mosso wrote:Why non-comp? The comments about a stuffy sound when using the 4th vavle scares me.

This is not an issue with most compensating euphoniums. The fourth valve and compensating branches are larger in bore than the first three, and I have never found them to be stuffy on otherwise good instruments. The only ones that have been stuffy were very old instruments that would today be thought of as peashooters.

To me, the best justification for non-comps (besides cost) is that the four valves are in line. This is easier for tuba players who double. But if you don't mind the fourth valve on the side, if money is no object, and if intonation is a high priority for you, then I can't imagine what would hold you back from getting a good compensator.

The person posing as KarlMarx is being cute, but mostly he entertains only himself. You have to be a polyglot to understand his word play.

Rick "who thinks 321's are okay, but who would prefer many instruments over that one if money were no object--including the Weril" Denney

Ryan_Beucke · Post by **Ryan_Beucke** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:44 pm

I don't want to annoy you with other opinions if you've made up your mind, but I would strongly urge you to try to play some compensating horns. I've never heard those stuffiness comments, and the only times they could even possibly apply are when you're using the 4th valve in combination with other valves, such as the low range, and I haven't felt that way on my horn.

Also, what Chuck said is very true. The best horns being made are compensating, just because that's the trend. I know it's been discussed already, and it would be nice if we could see what a superbly made non-comp is like, especially with a 5th valve, but the truth is that it just doesn't exist right now. The best thing that you could do is to try out some horns, but if you can't do that, think about this - all (or most) of the best players around use compensating horns, and I don't think any of them have a stuffy sound. I know that is a dangerous statement to make, but it's good to think about.

Lee Stofer · Post by **Lee Stofer** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:23 pm

There IS a superbly-made 5-valve non-compensating euphonium available - from Rudolf Meinl. Their "Kaiser bariton" is a true euphonium-bore instrument, and is available with 5 right-hand rotary valves. I've played one at the factory, and the "s" word would never be used in a conversation about this free-blowing instrument. You would have to wait about 2 to 2 1/2 months to get one, and it would cost about $6,000.00 in lacquer with a hard case, but it is one fine horn.

Otherwise, I work on a ton of 321's and they are a good, solid instrument, if well-maintained. The Weril sounds good, but is possibly less durable than the Yamaha. I think the best bang for the buck would be a Kanstul compensating euphonium, personally. I have tried one next to the established standard 3+1 compensating euphoniums, and I found it to be very nice. And, all of the workmanship and cosmetics were right on the one I tried out. I'm personally proud that an American company is finally building a comp. euphonium, and that it is really good, too.

Captain Sousie · Post by **Captain Sousie** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:35 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:Don't even bother with trying to translate K's writing--he has his own argot made up of several languages.

I count 6 or 7 in the post above. Bloody impossible and not worth it to try.

Sou

Bob Mosso · Post by **Bob Mosso** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:31 pm

How much $ am I willing to spend for a community band "hobby"? Enough to get a decent instrument that won't limit my ability to play. $3500 for a Willson 2704, is it twice as good as the 321? Its twice the price.

If I toss out my opinion about non-comp verses comp, a Yamaha 642S can be had for $3899. I'm not sure my "hobby" justifies spending the extra $ (verses the 321S).

Going the other direction, Weril, VMI, Allora, ... My fear is that I would regret the decision. Yes I'd have the horn now, but in a year would I be kicking myself for not getting something better.

After much deliberation, I'm going to wait for my 321S. I still think it's the best bang for the buck, and an approperiate instrument for my level of playing.

Thanks for all the advise, it really made me think.
Bob

Ryan_Beucke · Post by **Ryan_Beucke** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:30 pm

It sounds like you're making the right choice. For a community band it should be great and I doubt you'd regret that decision. Good luck with your new horn when you get it!

Captain Sousie · Post by **Captain Sousie** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:30 pm

Twice the price? Brasswind Yep-321s=$2449 Wilson=$3499. OK

I am not disagreeing with your decision. I think it is a good one.

Sou

Bob Mosso · Post by **Bob Mosso** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:05 pm

Captain Sousie wrote:Twice the price? Brasswind Yep-321s=$2449 Wilson=$3499. OK

There is a trick with the brasswind web site. Yes, it shows $2449 for the YEP-321S. Add item # 17578 to the "shopping kart" and the price drops to $1749. I've found this price drop happens on most of the Yamaha euphs, but not the other manufacturers.

ThomasP · Post by **ThomasP** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:52 pm

I would much rather play a very cheaply made CC tuba rather than the best BBb's on the market, and I've played the BBb's on the market.

So I use this comment in relation to euphonium's, I double occasionally and when I buy a euph, if I'm unable to afford a Besson, Willson, or Yamaha fully compensating Euphonium I will find the best fully compensating Euphonium I can afford. Basically I am saying the highest quality non-compensating euph, TO ME, would be a waste of money if you can get a fully compensating euph for the same price. For that matter if you can get any fully compensating euphonium for the money you're willing to spend do it.

From what I read earlier you're hesitating getting a fully compensating euphonium because you think they sound stuffy. I think most professional players play on fully compensating euphoniums and I don't think they are wanting to sound stuffy, nor do I believe they sound stuffy.

My opinion and only my opinion

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